Updating R2-D2 and LEGO Star Wars helmets

Very enlightening! I'm glad they're willing to answer questions like these to clear up the air.

I agree with their decision to walk back the helmets... the orange visor just seems too thick. But I'm definitely hoping for some R2 upgrades in the future. Fingers crossed!

Interesting stuff. Whilst I've grown to accept the new stormie helmet, I do still prefer the old. The Rebel helmet was too big for their standard snowspeeder design as acknowledged by Michael, so I think going back on the stormie is less likely as they often aren't in such tight cockpits.

I thought the first TFA wave had some great pilot helmets for Poe Dameron and the Resistance pilots, why not adapt them for future Rebel helmets?

If it means anything, I quite like the new Stormtrooper helmets! I might be biased since I've mostly got the new ones, so I'm not as worried about mixing them in with older versions of the helmet. For the rebel pilot helmets, I'm kinda torn. On the one hand, not having the visor on it is kinda nostalgic. On the other, it lets a minifigures that doesn't have the goggles printed on it to just slip it right on. Also, while R2 doesn't have back printing, I do appreciate the attempts at new styles with included detail.

I don't mind if minifigures aren't as detailed personally. Just as long as they look good and represent the character well, I'm happy. Something about a less is more approach just makes a minifigure charming to me.

I’ve always considered MF to be representations of characters, not copies. Thus, I don’t care that they are not as detailed as they could be. I don’t really like custom figs, especially the clone ones as I often find them too detailed. They don’t look like LEGO figs anymore.

I also like the latest Stormtrooper helmet. It looks great. I did really enjoy the one before as well.

Been waiting 12 years since I came out of my dark age for poor R2 to get some love, seems like the wait will have to go on even longer. That they just can't do back printing on that piece, which is way much larger than a lot of other pieces that get back printing, is just BS honestly. R2-D2 appears in multiple sets every single year, it's one of the most common Star Wars minifigures, and still gets no love. Bizarre.

Also, I don't get why they just don't make a new mould for R2-D2's body, one that could attach a third leg and allow for the head to rotate. Redesign the legs to add some dual-moulding as well as printing while you're at it.

Thank you for asking my question about the R2-D2 printing. The answer "Honestly, I am not certain why this has not really been considered before" is a little disappointing.

It still seems strange that they can print double sided heads but not R2-D2 torsos since both are cylindrical shapes.

I hope they introduce a new Biggs with the old helmet soon, currently he doesn't fit in with the other pilots because he is the only one with this 2018 helmet part. But I'm tired of seeing X-wings though.

Interesting interview.
I must admit I don't pay much attention to minifigs. Therefore I don't notice little inaccuracies that much. I realize they are trying their best to balance between realism and play value, and I for one am very happy with their efforts so far.

I will say, I used to hate the new stormtrooper helmet, but after seeing them in person, they are excellent. They capture enough detail, but also have a good LEGO feel to them. I hope to amass quite the army of them over the years to come.

I find it conspicuous that they specifically focused on the lack of back-printing on Astromech Droids (which admittedly is weird given how many years TLG has been doing minifigures with 2 expressions). Surely the bigger issue is with the wonky head printing? Maybe it's become a weird convention or something i.e. it's only "LEGO" R2-D2 if he has a wonky head.

To quote Jens: "The equipment necessary to decorate both sides of that cylinder piece is not available at the moment." In other words, TLG doesn't do it because they don't want to. They're saving it for when they don't have anything else new to offer.

This is a good little interview, and I think it helps remind people that they are designing Lego representations of characters, and thus will always have a certain “off” look to them. I think they do great jobs overall with characters.

@Graysmith said:
"Also, I don't get why they just don't make a new mould for R2-D2's body, one that could attach a third leg and allow for the head to rotate. Redesign the legs to add some dual-moulding as well as printing while you're at it."

It would bulk R2 up significantly if you want all of those things, rather than having a sleek droid, you’d have a blocky monster. It would also bump up the price quite a lot and the people would complain it’s too expensive.

The new Stormtrooper helmet is excellent, people will get used to it with time. And yes, I also have figures with the old helmet. On other hand, it is sad that the Rebel helmet with visor was dropped, I also like the change. The helmets on the movies are pretty large, just like the new mould they tried.

It just seems that fans are clinging too much to the old designs for pure nostalgia. Even Grievous' amazing second design is criticized sometimes. I'm still surprised that Boba Fett, Snowtrooper and Vader's new designs were well accepted, for example...

"we are trying to maintain the certain loveable, humorous nature associated with LEGO minifigures."

This is an awful justification for the horrendous moves they've made lately. The new Darth Vader helmet still looks oversized, the new stormtrooper helmet looks hideous and doesn't allow the head to turn, and the new hood pieces for Palpatine, Obi-Wan etc look more like shower towels than actual hoods.

None of those changes make the characters look loveable or humorous. They make them look ridiculous.
The fact that LEGO doesn't seem able to just admit the changes were a mistake speaks more about the absolute arrogance with which The LEGO Group operates than anything else.

@FuddRuckus said:
"It still seems strange that they can print double sided heads but not R2-D2 torsos since both are cylindrical shapes."

I was going to comment exactly this. I also find it strange as I worked as a screen printer for a while making various promotional merchandise, and we managed to print cylindrical objects with no problems at all.

@djcbs said:
"None of those changes make the characters look loveable or humorous. They make them look ridiculous."

One man’s ridiculous is another man’s humorous.

I like the fact that the designers recognise that they'll get criticism either way, as the comments here testify.
I think they've done a pretty good job overall, and the issue with the rebel pilot helmet shows how they're prepared to adapt.
As for the stormtropper helmets, I've both stood next to each other. I think they both look good and don't look too incongruous together.

It's important to note that designing new LEGO elements is an iterative process, and while experimentations may be awkward doing no experiments can prevent improvements.

I think it's consistency is important, so if a part is updated and they decide to keep that update all old figs using that element should get a makeover, however that also means that such updates should be few and far between.

Very interesting to read for a LSW collector. If you ever have the chance to ask Lego designers why they stopped making Snowspeeder pilots (white hands) and only include X-wing pilots in the Hoth sets lately, I would honestly be very interested in that.

@MGBricks :
That would certainly explain why they keep running into doors, and shooting wildly into the air, and walls, and the ground.

@Graysmith :
To make Professor Quirrell, they had to devise a way to print both sides of the head. Once they did that, any future duals-sided heads simply made use of the same technology. I can't remember what got the first torso with printed back, but once that was done, all future dual-sided torsos just needed new pads cut. Add arm printing, and leg printing, and hips printing, and each step along the way they had to devise new equipment to make this possible.

It's not that they _can't_ do it for R2's torso, but that they've never reached a point where they felt it was necessary enough to pull the trigger. Once they do, expect every astromech to start receiving dual-sided printing on the body. Until then, just realize that each new element that they decide to print needs new attachments to orient it in a uniform manner, pick it up, and hold it during the printing process.

It's possible that the attachment that's designed to hold the astromech body does so in such a way that the reverse side is obstructed and can't be printed in the same step. Trying to send the same piece through for a second print run, and you create two problems. One is that it ties up the equipment twice as long. The other is that you now have to make sure every single piece is flipped over so you're not printing both patterns on the same side. Printing both sides in the same step solves both of these problems, but it may not be possible at all on some of their older printing equipment. So, even if they make the attachments that will allow this, it could mean other prints have to be downgraded from dual-sided to single-sided to free up time on the machine.

I remember reading recently that they are at full capacity on printing, so as much as we might all prefer dual-sided astromechs, I don't think it's likely to happen under the current circumstances. As soon as they determine they need increased printing capacity, if they add another machine that's capable of dual-sided printing, that would be the ideal time to make the switch, since they will have enough excess capacity on that new machine to handle every astromech. Doing so would also free up time for single-sided prints, so there'd be no net loss of overall print capacity, just a shift in what method of printing is available.

The other thing we don't know is how that will fit into their "new part" budget. Does a dual-sided print count the same as two single-sided prints? It could be that the reason they've held off on this so long is that not making that jump leaves a few "frames" free for part recolors, or additional single-sided prints, and they haven't been willing to give that up for something that isn't as simple to pull off as upgrading a torso from single-sided to dual-sided print.

@StarWarzFan7777 :
They released a Biggs minifig with an old-style helmet in the very first wave of SW sets back in 1999. It's a cheat, but you can always buy just the helmet and swap them. There's even a third Biggs minifig that comes in a book, which has no helmet, and can be obtained quite a bit cheaper than the 2018 Biggs. Between the old helmet and the new minifig, you'd be looking at under $10, before shipping.

@Cooliocdawg :
The new helmet looks like it was designed by Hasbro. So did the last version.

@ALEGOMan :
The molds are the same, but the print has evolved over the years. Not counting the R2 with dirt stains, the snow version, the torsos with the LEGO logo on the back, or other astromechs, I count five distinct versions of the head print, and three torso prints.

@lynels :
I much prefer the old Boba Fett helmet/jetpack. Again, the new one looks like it was designed by Hasbro.

@Graysmith:
People, including myself, have been able to add custom 3rd legs using illegal techniques (half-pin inside a tube), or cut parts (shortened axle w/ stud on end), but the end result still looks like R2-D2 sitting on a cheese wedge. If they want to do it right, they can make a 3rd leg element that fits nicely inside the astromech torso without any illegal connections, which actually matches the look of the regular feet, and which might even be able to fit around a regular pattern of studs when the feet are pressed down on the same.

I think the Mandalorian helmet/jetpack combo is probably the only design I think is a straight-up improvement (even if the helmet looks a little less Lego-ish).
Vader's new helmet is too big and always makes him look slightly upward, like a sitcom character drifting into a daydream. TIE pilot/AT-AT driver helmets are a little chunky and leave too much neck exposed. Stormtroopers are flat-faced and can't turn their heads at all anymore. These Rebel helmets are needlessly gigantic (minifigs already have big heads – you don't need to go EVEN LARGER). Tusken raiders look dorky and not at all consistent with the Lego style (why are their heads a completely different shape from human(oid) minifigs?).

@Pekingduckman said:
"I thought the first TFA wave had some great pilot helmets for Poe Dameron and the Resistance pilots, why not adapt them for future Rebel helmets?"

Resistance trooper helmets as well, pretty slim profile and they still packed in a dual-moulded visor. As did the U-Wing pilot helmet from Rogue One.

@PurpleDave said:
" @Graysmith :
To make Professor Quirrell, they had to devise a way to print both sides of the head. Once they did that, any future duals-sided heads simply made use of the same technology. I can't remember what got the first torso with printed back, but once that was done, all future dual-sided torsos just needed new pads cut. Add arm printing, and leg printing, and hips printing, and each step along the way they had to devise new equipment to make this possible."

The other benefit was that these techniques could then be applied across figures for all themes, and have continued to be used. Double sided printing on an astromech has very little (if any) application outside of Star Wars, which may make it a problem too expensive to solve for the limited application.

@lynels said:
"The new Stormtrooper helmet is excellent, people will get used to it with time. And yes, I also have figures with the old helmet. On other hand, it is sad that the Rebel helmet with visor was dropped, I also like the change. The helmets on the movies are pretty large, just like the new mould they tried.

It just seems that fans are clinging too much to the old designs for pure nostalgia. Even Grievous' amazing second design is criticized sometimes. I'm still surprised that Boba Fett, Snowtrooper and Vader's new designs were well accepted, for example..."

FWIW, “nostalgia” isn’t my main concern. As someone who started getting LEGO Star Wars sets in the early years of the theme and who’s built up quite a catalog of sets and parts, my main concern is simply having uniformed troops that aren’t, well… uniform. I don’t even mind some of the early changes, like the ones from the very early Rebel pilot minifigures to the next torso design, since that really did add something, but after a point it gets more frustrating than fun. I want to be able to amass enough figures over a few years’ worth of set purchases to be able to MOC things like the Yavin awards ceremony, all the various troops-massed-in-a-hangar scenes, battlefields, etc., but when all the units of a certain type that are meant to have the same outfit look as different as they do, it tends to detract from the result. Worse, they’re accelerating the rate at which they update these figures. Worse still, they continue to update figures even after having hit quasi-ideal levels of detail years ago, so that often the new changes are either no better than the previous iteration, only different (serving only to make them visually jarring next to the figures bought last year), and at worst, actually slightly worse.

I mean, I absolutely get that this is the height of first-world problems and all that, but still.

@MGBricks said:
"As a designer, my ethos is 'if it ain't broke don't fix it.'

The new stormtrooper helmet mould inhibits anyone from turning the helmet so they look dead straight. It looks too large compared to the head.

Plus they don't look consistent next to the older variety.

I really wish they brought the old mould back. "

Strongly agree. They talk about not wanting to be entirely accurate, but the new stormtrooper helmet feels like an attempt at that - hell, it looks great on its own. It's very detailed and very accurate. But, when on a minifig and at an angle other than straight-on, it just looks so wrong on a minifig.

@yamaki:
On a guess, it's because they are two similar torsos that require different prints and different blank torso assemblies. From the Exo-Suit interview, we learned that the reason they chose to make green Classic Spacemen was because they already had solid green torsos in production for TMNT, and it would actually use less new part "frames" to make them green than to retain the original white Spaceman from the submitted project. They don't produce a ton of orange torsos, so making one dedicated for X-Wing, and another dedicated for Snowspeeder, and then giving the black gloves one print, and the white gloves a second print, likely just felt like they were using too many frames on parts that don't often get used for more than one new set per year. When they started printing the legs, this may have been the sacrifice that was required.

@Rob42:
Sandpeople have metal knobs sticking out of their headwraps, which can't adequately be depicted with print any more than Darth Maul's crown of horns. In the latter case, that was easy enough to solve by creating a headpiece since all the horns are located on top of the head. For Sandpeople, that doesn't work so well. Sure, they could have (and possibly should have) made the new head sculpt more minifig-shaped, but I understand why they want to shift away from representing more complex shapes with print on heads.

@DoonsterBuildsLego:
Yeah, there haven't been a lot of prints for that part in general, outside of astromechs. Offhand, all I can think of is the engine print from the yellow speeder that Anakin steals in Ep2. But they do produce a lot of astromechs. Even if you remove R2 from the equation, they've averaged close to two other astromechs per year.

@CapnRex101 said:
" Your criticisms of Darth Vader and other minifigures are opinions. LEGO may revert to using the previous designs if those views were considered widespread. Evidently, they are not.

Also, this article actually contains an admission that the recent Rebel Pilot helmet possessed issues, hence LEGO reversed their decision. LEGO evidently does admit mistakes sometimes!

With regard to the new Stormtrooper helmet not rotating, I would point out that the original helmet could not rotate without being raised either, although not to the same degree as this element. I am not sure how that could be avoided given the helmet's onscreen design."

And your evidence is?
Because I haven't seen a single person - fan or reviewer - ever praising the new helmets or head towel pieces.

If you think LEGO changes anything based on consumer feedback, you're being extremely naïve.
LEGO only cares about maximising their profits. They didn't revert the helmet because it was poorly received. They reverted it because, as it's implied in their answer, the price of accuracy was making the process of manufacturing more difficult and expensive. A bigger helmet means more plastic used. Which does make a difference when you mass produce them as LEGO does.
LEGO has proven time and again they're pretty lazy and will cut as many corners as they can. That's what they did.

As for the Stormtrooper helmet, if you can't fix it, don't make it worse!
That's something pretty basic, no? If you make a cut in your hand, you try to heal it, you don't go and make a deeper cut beside it.
But that's what LEGO did. They not only didn't fix anything, they made it worse for no good reason.

Yeah, I'm sorry but the days I would simp for The LEGO Group are way behind me. For the money they're asking for the sets today, specially the Star Wars sets, these sort of half-arsed explanations don't cut it anymore.
If we don't hold them accountable for the poor job they've been doing and keep making up excuses for them, nothing will get better.

People do realize that you couldn’t really turn the old stormtrooper helmets right?

@djcbs I like all the new helmets. I wish they had made more dual-molded Rebel pilot helmets. I like the new stormtrooper helmets. I want MORE SW minifigures. I was perfectly happy with the original, printed-head Tusken Raiders- but I like the newer molded heads too! I got my first LEGO minifigures and first Star Wars action figures in 1978, then had to wait 21 years to get LEGO Star Wars minifigures! To everyone who vomplains about figures being changed, but not improved (in your opinion), would you prefer that TLG never changed them? It took C-3PO 15 years to get printed legs. Was this an improvement? I think so.

@djcbs
I think you might need to find a new hobby. It doesn’t seem like you’re enjoying it anymore.

@DavidBrick:
It was Woody and Jessie who had long legs, and along with Zurg also had long arms. Then there were sculpted heads for all three of those characters, plus Buzz, the Claw Aliens, Stinky Pete, and Twitch. Then it looks like there were four molds for Lotso, five for Rex, six for Bullseye, four for Hamm, five or six for Chunk, one for Stretch, three for Buzz’ armor, one for Zurg’s armor, two for Twitch’ antennae and wings, and two more for the Green Army Men helmet and stand. That’s a minimum of 44 molds before you even start looking at the sets.

There are hard limits imposed on the designers for how many molds can be active at any given time, in part to avoid the waste that led to their big annual losses in the early 00’s. TS3 was expected to be the last movie of the Toy Story franchise, so it didn’t make much sense to hold on to that many character-specific molds. Frankly, I was shocked that five of these parts resurfaced for the first wave of Disney CMFs, and that they were joined by Rex’ six molds for the TS4 run. If you’d asked me right after the TS3 run was retired, I probably would have guessed that only the GAM helmet and stand would see further use (incidentally, I believe Twitch’ antenna is the only mold besides these two that has been used in a non-TS set).

@chromeboy2k:
The knowledge of how to make it work exists. They physical machinery to accommodate the astromech torso for dual-sided printing does not. To date, the only dual-sides print they’ve done for astromech bodies is slapping the LEGO logo on the backs of R2-D2 keychains. Since those were all made in China, it’s entirely possible that all they did was have some entry-level worker orient them by hand so the logo and front deck wouldn’t get printed on the same side.

And one guy said the larger helmet causes problems with getting the minifig to fit in small cockpits. @AgentKallus specifically mentioned that the very standardized Snowspeeder cockpit is small enough that the 2018 helmet prevents the canopy from being fully closed.

@CapnRex101:
And the Minion torsos are triple-molded, as are some legs. They didn’t have to do that, and could have just relied on print to get the point across.

@graymattr:
I’ve seen a few techniques for dechaining the keychains, and I haven’t found one that worked as promised. I eventually just started breaking the loop off the top, which allows you to remove the headgear and head, and then snap the metal stem right at the neck post. Of course, this works best if you’re willing to sacrifice the headgear and have a hole-free copy lined up to replace it. Besides eliminating any need to be gentle, it also allows you to hide the unsightly hole that’s left behind.

@djcbs said:
" @CapnRex101 said:
" Your criticisms of Darth Vader and other minifigures are opinions. LEGO may revert to using the previous designs if those views were considered widespread. Evidently, they are not.

Also, this article actually contains an admission that the recent Rebel Pilot helmet possessed issues, hence LEGO reversed their decision. LEGO evidently does admit mistakes sometimes!

With regard to the new Stormtrooper helmet not rotating, I would point out that the original helmet could not rotate without being raised either, although not to the same degree as this element. I am not sure how that could be avoided given the helmet's onscreen design."

And your evidence is?
Because I haven't seen a single person - fan or reviewer - ever praising the new helmets or head towel pieces.

If you think LEGO changes anything based on consumer feedback, you're being extremely naïve.
LEGO only cares about maximising their profits. They didn't revert the helmet because it was poorly received. They reverted it because, as it's implied in their answer, the price of accuracy was making the process of manufacturing more difficult and expensive. A bigger helmet means more plastic used. Which does make a difference when you mass produce them as LEGO does.
LEGO has proven time and again they're pretty lazy and will cut as many corners as they can. That's what they did.

As for the Stormtrooper helmet, if you can't fix it, don't make it worse!
That's something pretty basic, no? If you make a cut in your hand, you try to heal it, you don't go and make a deeper cut beside it.
But that's what LEGO did. They not only didn't fix anything, they made it worse for no good reason.

Yeah, I'm sorry but the days I would simp for The LEGO Group are way behind me. For the money they're asking for the sets today, specially the Star Wars sets, these sort of half-arsed explanations don't cut it anymore.
If we don't hold them accountable for the poor job they've been doing and keep making up excuses for them, nothing will get better."
You’re entitled to your opinion, but it sounds like your issues are a lot bigger than just their “poor” excuses. Take a break. It will do you good.

Are those who complain often and loudly when Lego tries out a new / updated helmet design the same people who lose their marbles when the word ‘slave’ isn’t being used as often as they’d like?

Asking for a friend

@sipuss said:
" @andygott said:
"Are those who complain often and loudly when Lego tries out a new / updated helmet design the same people who lose their marbles when the word ‘slave’ isn’t being used as often as they’d like?

Asking for a friend"

Yes, all the opinions you don't agree with are shared by the same, small group of people."

Whew! Glad to hear it. Small group of haters is so much easier to stomach than large group of haters!