Nostalgia: What's Up With That...?
Posted by poshhammer,
Welcome to "What's Up With That...?", the article series where I, ex-LEGO designer James and host of new YouTube channel TUBESIDE, will explore some of the frequently asked questions from AFOLs about the mysteries of the design decisions of The LEGO Group.
When would you say is the "golden age" of LEGO releases?
Is it now? Where there are so many great IPs and sets catered to every age group? Or back in the 70s/80s? When things were simpler, bricks were bricks and there was more space for you to use your imagination?
Well you're all wrong, the peak LEGO era was 1997-2004. This was the era when there was so much innovation happening. The excitement of seeing LEGO Star Wars for the first time, and then around 2002 when all those new bow (curved slopes) elements in cool new colours (dark red, dark blue, teal, etc), there were also things like Bionicle, taking storytelling and Technic into a whole new direction. Not to mention the start of mechs and robots entering the portfolio.
Yes, THIS was when LEGO peaked. Everything before was basic and simplistic, everything after was too detailed and too reliant on 3rd party IPs.
Wait, what's that you're asking? When was I the target age for LEGO toys? Well, my estimation would be around 1997-2004. Why do you ask...?
The incendiary argument I am making above is that you can make a case for any era of The LEGO Group's history being the best era. I'm sure wooden toy enthusiasts would like them to go back to the 1930s. In the era I mentioned, the company was in a dire financial situation, there were many dud themes, some would even argue Bionicle is one of them, and you could argue the introduction of the bow system moved LEGO toys away from their blocky roots.
You would not believe the "Ending of Ratatouille" style reaction I get by looking at these images.
This article has less of a specific point to make but more just me rambling (@Rambling Bricks get me on the podcast) about nostalgia, how it relates to the LEGO fandom, and why everyone's favourite Zelda game is the one that released when they were 10.
Nostalgia is a very funny thing in the AFOL community. These 10 or so years of your life as a child shape your tastes as an adult despite those years being an ever shrinking percentage of your total life. For us, this is doubly so, as we are still buying toys.
As a designer, I have had to reflect a lot on this time to remember and capture the emotions I felt when playing with toys and putting them into my work. But also, as a designer, I need to remember that times have changed, kids are different now, and if I stay firmly stuck in the past I will be left behind and unable to innovate. On the other hand, the AFOL in me has no such restrictions, and can confidently say that LEGO Island Extreme Stunts was one of the best themes and should be brought back, even though extreme sports were very "of its time".
6738 Skateboard Challenge
Personally, I think the best castle ever made is 70317 The Fortrex. It had so many play features, the colours were awesome (you can't complain about its garishness while defending the Yellow Castle), the 6-shooter, the robot chef, THE TANK TREADS. But if someone presented me with that or 6098 King Leo's Castle from 2000, my monkey brain neurons would take the older castle every time.
The GOAT, not to be confused with 96089, The Goat.
I couldn't talk about nostalgia without mentioning the absolute stranglehold Classic Space and Classic Castle has on the AFOL community. I will concede that these came at a pivotal time during The LEGO Group's history, so they are of particular note, but during the 90+ years of history, there are so many other great moments that don't nearly get as much attention (except the wooden duck, but he's a good boy and deserves all the attention).
I'm seeing double here, FOUR Galaxy Explorers!
35 years after Classic Space, The LEGO Group made 70816 Benny's Spaceship, a loving homage to the LEGO sets of old. 43 years after Classic Space, they made 10497 Galaxy Explorer. The furthest forward, minus GWPs, is 1989 with 10320 Eldorado Fortress. Where, if you were 10 when it came out, you would be 45 now. There are people from around 25-44 who also feel nostalgia who are not being catered to by the current output.
I keep bringing this set up as an example for some reason...
If we go by the usual nostalgia cycle, in pop culture today (outside AFOL-dom) the current mainstream thing is y2k - nostalgia for things around the early 2000s. But if it was suggested they do a proper nostalgia set of Knight's Kingdom II from 2004, everyone would laugh at the idea as something that was far too modern for people to be nostalgic for it.
I guess it's close enough to 6098. (8781 The Castle of Morcia)
"Mom said it's my turn on the Xbox."
The AFOL community (not to be confused with adult LEGO fans), is simultaneously commanding a lot of power over the LEGO nostalgia machine but also none at all. There is this lack of understanding that no, The LEGO Group will not bring back a new castle theme (without lasers), modern children wouldn't be interested, and the demand from AFOLs is so insignificant sales-wise that even if EVERYONE on Brickset agreed they would buy the full wave it wouldn't be enough money for it to be worth it (this is also why Bricklink sets are no indicator of market demand).
But, at the same time, people who are 40+ are living large right now with all the nostalgia sets dedicated to their childhoods. It's a funny contradiction and the two scenarios are often confused with each other. (Feel free to argue this one out in the comments)
The people in charge 10 years ago when The LEGO Group started leaning into nostalgia are mostly the same people in charge now, or of the same generation at least, so it is still the same generation making the business decisions who are nostalgic for that same era. The best us lowly Millennials can do is sneak some Rock Raiders references into stickers for a Ninjago City.
71741 NINJAGO City Gardens
Note Added: This article was written before the new 2HY 2024 sets filled with more recent nostalgia Easter Eggs were announced. Although they are more substantial than just stickers (such as 60421 Robot World), I still feel they lack legitimacy without it being a named set, rather than a more elaborate Easter Egg.
So if I were to try to formulate a point, nostalgia is a great cosy thing. It DOES suck that things have changed since we were all kids and the new stuff, from our perspective, isn't the same. But this shouldn't be equated with imposing this on the younger generations. The old sets are still there, and for the Gen-Xers amongst you, you are being catered to more than most. Times will change, with or without us, and besides, we can always go on Bricklink and try buy back our childhoods whenever we want.
I guess this is all a very long-winded way of saying: when can we get a UCS 6493 Flying Time Vessel??
If you have a topic you would like to discuss, let me know in the comments below and, much like the monkey paw, your wish might just get granted...
Post Script:
I want to put it here because I can't think of any other article topic that it would be more suited for, but there was a period from around 2019-2022 LEGO City where they went ALL IN on drones. It makes total sense from a business perspective to freshen up a theme with new trends, but 3 years in a child's mind is such a long time and there will be some kids where all of their LEGO City sets came from that era.
So, in 20 years time, when they are reminiscing about LEGO they will be like "Oh yes! LEGO City! That theme with all the drones!" and everyone else in the room would be so confused... But that same person I'm sure will be on Brickset saying "I miss all the drones in LEGO sets, bring back the drones!!" (That kinda keeps it on topic, right...?)
Okay I'll stop droning on now.
Oh wait, I forgot to plug anything this time, errrr...
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See you in the next one!
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155 comments on this article
It's always fun to see references to older themes in Ninjago City sets, like the nods to Ice Planet and Rock Raiders, it really shows that the designers were once fans like us
I'd say the best sets were from late 80s to early 00s and I haven't even been born yet for most of that period.
You say we can buy any of the old sets we want and link a set that's only available (at the time of writing this comment) in USA and Hong Kong for a "mere" 460-550 USD. That's way too much to justify a nostalgic purchase even without adding in shipping costs and import taxes.
The fact is that for the old sets the demand far outweighs the supply which is why we're so desperate for Lego to release something new in the themes we miss so much. Whether we're numerous enough to make it profitable for them to bother is a different topic.
I was a little shocked how strong this childhood nostalgia hit me when I saw Johnny Thunder return in the upcoming lego city sets. It's definitely an emotion to be reckoned with and be more aware of in discussions here on Brickset.com
Oh, this is my favourite so far! Not the most informative, as it's a subjective subject, but the most entertaining. The tongue-in-cheek is awesome.
Keep up the great work, @poshhammer !
"...and the demand from AFOLs is so insignificant sales-wise that even if EVERYONE on Brickset agreed they would buy the full wave it wouldn't be enough money for it to be worth it..."
I think we (the 325,049 members of Brickset) should test this theory and put it to LEGO - once we all agree on a theme that is!
@bananaworld said:
"
Oh, this is my favourite so far! Not the most informative, as it's a subjective subject, but the most entertaining. The tongue-in-cheek is awesome.
Keep up the great work, @poshhammer !"
Damn! Good writing.
Interesting that you and I are from the same generation. I must admit that I can relate quite well to your own nostalgia, and my brain goes haywire when I see sets from that era too.
That said, I think it's important to be considerate to each other about this stuff. When people started popping up being nostalgic for Power Miners and Chima I was initially a bit surprised, as those themes never quite hit me the same way. But at the end of the day it's most important that we all are FANS, and that's a wonderful thing!
That said... Personally I find the sheer amount of easter eggs and sometimes whole-cloth remakes a bit excessive now. Especially Classic Space, initially the first era of the Space theme I have very near and dear to my heart (the entire run), now feels like that one specific color scheme with that one specific shape of spaceship with that one specific minifigure in various colors that just. won't. stop. being. referenced.
I get it. It's marketable. It's beloved by a group who now has a lot to spend on it. And it's simple to reference. But we now get what feels like about 3-4 references to it each _year_! Every year.
This might sound strange coming from someone from this site, but I welcome more new things. The recent City Space subtheme was marvelous, finally giving us things we've barely had before now whilst no longer being restricted by City's restrictive hallmarks.
And outside of space (but also relatedly?), the Dreamzzz theme is amazing in my book. And before that, Hidden Side.
Maybe it's the turbulent era I grew up with during Lego's history, but I don't mind a little out there stuff if it means things aren't getting too stagnant.
I might grumble a lot about stuff sometimes, but at the end of the day, even though my hobby is no doubt fueled by nostalgia (after all, I'm collecting a children's building toy), I always prefer a good original thing over a decent nostalgic or familiar thing (or IP).
@iamkevinwill said:
""...and the demand from AFOLs is so insignificant sales-wise that even if EVERYONE on Brickset agreed they would buy the full wave it wouldn't be enough money for it to be worth it..."
I think we (the 325,049 members of Brickset) should test this theory and put it to LEGO - once we all agree on a theme that is!
"
I think that this is exactly the point that was made in the article: even IF everyone would agree (which I can tell you right now we don't. Just statistically people on here are probably not as homogeneous as it might seem due to a vocal minority making it seem that way), it still wouldn't be enough.
And I can tell you right now that personally my purchasing power is not going to scale the same with some others as I don't have that much to spend. If everyone would have to buy an Eiffel Tower... can you really expect everyone to? The price? The space it takes?
So, everyone over here might wish that everyone agrees a certain thing was awesome and should be brought back, but not everyone will agree and the amount of people that do think so are not quite significant in number to warrent such a thing, sadly.
“I guess this is all a very long-winded way of saying: when can we get a UCS 6493 Flying Time Vessel??”
Well, let’s see, from 497 (in 1979) to 10497 was 43 years, 6276 (in 1989) to 10320 was 34 years, if the “nostalgia window” keeps shrinking for nine years every decade like that then a late ‘90s project like 6493 should expect a revival after 25 years…so we should have had it in 2021! You’ve been cheated out of it! XD
This is a very good article.
I feel like it’s also worth pointing out that Lego-specific nostalgia (even now) is still a much smaller niche than nostalgia for non-Lego media can be. Space fans can complain a ton about how much the Star Wars theme has crowded out some of those classic sorts of themes, but the reality is that many more children of the ‘70s and ‘80s formed an emotional attachment to franchises like Star Wars than they did to things like Classic Space themes, which looked cool but had no specific characters or stories to connect to. That leads to a much broader nostalgia base overall.
In that sense, I feel like companies like Hasbro were slightly ahead of the game in creating story media to complement their toys back in the ‘80s—a trick Lego has only more recently learned. Because of that, they’ve been able to capitalize on adult nostalgia for their own original brands like Transformers much more than Lego was until recently.
I do wonder how that will affect Lego nostalgia going forward, now that even shorter-lived Lego themes have been able to have TV series. Obviously long-lived Lego themes like Ninjago and Friends have lasted long enough to expand their age ranges upward and start producing sets that celebrate the themes’ legacy. But I also wonder if, a decade or two from now, nostalgia for smaller themes like Chima and Nexo Knights will be much stronger than nostalgia for ‘90s themes had a chance to be, thanks to a broader potential appeal. If so, I hope I’m still around for the wave of Lego Elves nostalgia!
James, can you comment on why Lego has never made 'basic' stud reversing plates? (e.g. with studs or anti-studs on both sides? There are various ways we can achieve the same effect, which are used, e.g. in Speed Champions or in the Singapore Skyline (Marina Bay Sands, uses the overwatch gun). And I think they even registered designs for them?
I don't know that a focus on nostalgia is healthy, per se, but it's MY lego obsession we're talking about, so if that's what I've landed on, well, let's just say it'll explain a LOT of my RSoTD comments.
I've got to be a few years older than @poshhammer, since I'd start the perfect nostalgia window a few years earlier (about 1992). I'd close it earlier (2003), but marginally so, which either suggests I got into LEGO at a younger age or stuck it out deeper into my teen years--and I *did* never have a dark age. The true before/after for me is the colour change of 2004 mixed with that being the start of my LEGO internet years.
Another great, well written article, thanks! Bonus points for the Simpsons reference.
Thanks for the early kinds words people! Wasn't sure how this one would land as @bananaworld said, not that informative. XD
@rslotb I don't know anything about the design being registered, or can confirm an exact reason, but I used to be on an "Element Ambassador" committee where we would discuss new elements for the building system and one thing that would come up a LOT was the "health" of the system. It would be very easy of them to make that element, yes, but it goes against everything the system stands for really with the "building upwards" which is core to the experience. If an element like this was made, it would be leaned on a lot to solve design challenges in making new sets and would actually limit innovative building techniques rather than enhance it, not to mention something like that being terrible for kids if they end up in the brick bucket. Where does that put a lot of SNOT elements which came out in recent years? I think that is a debate a lot of people inside and outside the company could have strong opposing opinions on. But those only go 90°, to go a full 180° would be an angle too far I guess. ;)
@poshhammer, I'm very interested in seeing the amount of lego castle part sold by PAB.
I have the feeling lego is just being lazy and found out they can make more money by just selling the part instead of producing sets.
Nostalgia is where the multiplier of the money is.
@watcher21 said:
" @poshhammer , I'm very interested in seeing the amount of lego castle part sold by PAB.
I have the feeling lego is just being lazy and found out they can make more money by just selling the part instead of producing sets."
As usual (this is a running theme I have found with Brickset opinions) you are giving them too much credit assuming all branches of the company are aligned to underhandedly money grab from customers. The PAB people are very far removed from the SKU design team. I'm sure it was just someone in the brand store team thinking "yeah these are some cool elements, lets put that in!"
They are quite capable in overhandedly taking everyone's money instead of restoring to Machiavellian schemes to suppress a castle theme...
I've build many IPs growing up that didn't have a Lego set back then. So for me this is a great age of Lego because many of those IPs have gotten an official Lego set now.
I've also bought a lot of theme park sets, because back then I also made attempts to build theme parks (especially after visiting one).
In both cases the official ones look so much better.
I also still enjoy creating my own characters and builds (hello Bricklink!), but I don't have the time I used to have. So now it's more often building a set by following the instructions and have a nice relaxing building session.
This article makes some excellent points, but when I look at my own experience, it's interesting to note I struggle to apply it to myself at all. There isn't a single thing that came out when I was around 10 that I itch for a return to!
Plus, my barely-even-a-millennial ass *loves* classic space, less because of any nostalgia and more because I'm a big appreciator of simple, concise, cute designs.
However, anything that featured in LEGO Racers or other pre-2007 games makes me froth at the mouth, and that does probably have a lot to do with how much I played those games at that impressionable age. And I did have a couple classic space minifigs which fascinated me then, too...
Which brings up an interesting counterpoint: the older something is, the more people will have nostalgia for it, because media continues to exist after its initial release date! So it might be a good while before tapping into millennial nostalgia can match sales with the older stuff.
The golden age for Lego is late 80s to early 00s for sure.
"There are people from around 25-44 who also feel nostalgia who are not being catered to by the current output."
It's me! I'm in the article! Hi, everyone!
Excellent article that really emphasises what some adult fans tend to overlook; Lego is aimed at children for the vast majority of the ranges.
A great philosopher once said:
"I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!"
Nostalgia is so powerful that I spent the necessary amount for the 40581 Tahu and Takua promotion twice. The Bionicle easter eggs have been incredibly satisfying lately, even showing up in quite possibly the furthest theme from it (Friends sets 42604 and 41755 ).
Honestly it's a pretty great strategy - I hadn't even noticed how actually cool some of these new Friends sets were until the nostalgia easter eggs made me look closer.
@BioChan said:
"Nostalgia is so powerful that I spent the necessary amount for the 40581 Tahu and Takua promotion twice. The Bionicle easter eggs have been incredibly satisfying lately, even showing up in quite possibly the furthest theme from it (Friends sets 42604 and 41755 ).
Honestly it's a pretty great strategy - I hadn't even noticed how actually cool some of these new Friends sets were until the nostalgia easter eggs made me look closer."
Again, not a strategy, just some big ol' LEGO nerds in the graphic design team.
But that is an awesome byproduct that it got you to expand your horizons!
@umptybagger That's a very good counter point! With the way nostalgia cycles work now there will be adults nostalgic for The LEGO Movie when they were a kid soon and those people will be nostalgic for... Benny's Spaceship. Perpetuating the love of classic space.
@rslotb said:
"James, can you comment on why Lego has never made 'basic' stud reversing plates? (e.g. with studs or anti-studs on both sides? (...)"
Mega (Bloks) has a 2x2 plate with studs on both sides. It's fantastic and I wish they had a PAB\Bricklink service so I could buy ALL OF THEM.
You can buy such reversal pieces on AliExpress too; it just depends on your purity-level.
I try to keep my brands separate, but when such a super-useful piece exists, I'm very willing to mix 'n' match.
Loving the image chosen to headline the article.
"Nostalgia is remembering yesterday's prices while forgetting yesterday's wages." Yes, I have a great fondness for the sets I grew up with, but those sets had STAMPS, instruction steps that had you add a huge number of pieces per step (and didn't have an inset telling you what pieces you'd need unless it was a Technic or Model Team set), and no numbered bags (not a necessity for smaller sets, but the more pieces the set has, the more useful they are), so there are definitely aspects of today's sets that I wouldn't give up for any reason. Well, maaaybe if Lego let me go through their vault and take whatever I wanted...
@poshhammer said, talking about 10320:"I keep bringing this set up as an example for some reason..."
Feel free to continue, that set helped me get over the fact that I lost 6276 because I put off paying my storage bill for too long.
@poshhammer also said:"I guess this is all a very long-winded way of saying: when can we get a UCS 6493 Flying Time Vessel??"
I would be totally down with that. That was the last good-size set my parents bought me (for my sixteenth birthday), so it hits me in the nostalgia for more than one reason.
Cracking article.
I'm a big fan of Classic Space, and found the new Galaxy Explorer not a 'must buy' for me: too similar to the past, mostly nostalgia (again, for me). But when the new 60430 Interstellar Spaceship came out, that hit the sweet spot - fantastically designed, new, surprising, a hint of nostalgia while firmly moving forward.
I'm glad Lego calls back to past designs, but it's even better when they take what worked and top it.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be :-)
I'm in my mid-40s and not a nostalgic person at all, which I think sometimes puts me in the minority of AFOLs in my age range and activity level. There was a lot of joy in being a kid, but there was a lot that sucked too, and I tend to remember both without letting one overtake the other. In general I make a strong effort to live in the present. I keep current with music, movies, art, and other hobbies even though of course I have favorites from the past. The same goes for LEGO. I grew up with Pirates and Castle but I will go for brand-new sets and themes every time. Give me the higher detail, more intricate design, and more adult-oriented displayability of modern sets any day of the week. I feel fortunate that LEGO grew up with me, because I likely wouldn't have come back to the hobby otherwise.
Nostalgia sets for me are the sets from 2010. But I can safely say I really do enjoy sets from the 90s having picked quite a few up in yard sales and garage sales. Star Wars and Castle and Lord of the Rings will always be my favorite themes.
Also hugely controversial I actually like the new helmet hole phase II clones since as a child I loved being able to customize my phase I clones but hated being unable to customize my phase II clones from 2005 and 2013 respectively.
There was another "wooden" duck in 11014
@AlexanderTheGreat said:
"There was another "wooden" duck in 11014"
Dang, I remember that set existing and couldn't find it so thought maybe I was just confusing it with the 90th anniversary set.
One thing I've observed with nostalgia is that there seems to be an unsatisfiable quality to it. We've gotten so many nods to Classic Space, but they're not enough. We have new Castle masterpieces, but they're too expensive. We get a revival Pirates theme, but it flops. And even if the AFOLS were out in full force for the last one, it probably would have flopped still.
I think nostalgia, individually or as a community, should be reckoned with as inherently unrealistic and a symptom for a greater problem once it starts to drive someone's opinions to such an extent that every announcement garners a "why isn't it nostalgic?" response. At a certain point, nostalgia is an impossible desire for something we can't go back to, and in those cases, whatever caters to it will never be quite right. It might be healthier to acknowledge the change is here to stay. (Also, it's just myopic and unrealistic to hope for LEGO to do larger revivals like a whole new Classic Space theme when the AFOLS that would resonate with are a minority audience of LEGO consumers.)
I think there are definitely things to criticize modern LEGO for. Intricacy may have gone overboard in the way models are built, prices can seem wildly unfair, parts quality has its issues, collector sets are releasing too frequently, Ideas is broken, etc. But there are things to celebrate and positive changes I've seen even since my nostalgia period in my own childhood:
I remember in 2008 when every City figure was built from generic widespread parts. Those bland pieces were also in the Build-a-Minifigure stations. Nowadays, most City sets have unique and interesting figures worth getting and the BAM stations are a highlight offering parts you can't get in sets.
Remember flick-fire missiles? Or rather, aren't you glad you forgot them?
Instructions have been vastly improved for clarity and print quality, regardless of how simplistic they may look. I resented every set I had to build where black and dark grey were hard to tell apart and the stud outlines were difficult to make out.
LEGO has improved as it's changed even as it's taken on new problems. And if the ways it pays tribute to the older fans aren't enough, that's hardly LEGO's fault.
Great article, and I love your introduction. It is spot on !
As far as I am concerned, I don't feel that much nostalgia. I am sorry Castle and Space are missing nowadays, not the sets of those times by themselves but the themes in general, because I feel they are timeless. One is the past (at least in the western world) and the other is the future. Star Wars and Harry Potter may act as replacements of some sort however their aesthetics are way too constrained and limited. Space brought new worlds to life every two years while Star Wars has brought back the same blocky designs over and over for 20 years. It seems IP themes are actually THE themes for nostalgic people because most sets will reoccur sooner or later, while Space had complete creative freedom.
I have had a 22y long dark age starting in 1995 and when I returned in 2017 with the birth of my son, I looked back and felt I did not miss much (would love to put my hands on Galaxy Squad !). Current Lego builds are so much greater now, with SNOT and smooth curves, and the asian inspired themes are such a breath of fresh air. To some extent they compensate for the disappearance of Castle. And Dreamzzz seems promising so far. To me Lego is about creativity and the unlicensed themes have brought it back. Without Ninjago (did not know of MK at the time, Dreamzzz was not out, and Chima and Nexo were done with), I don't think I would have introduced my son to Lego.
I think the best for nostalgic people is to start creating and sharing their own sets instead of ranting. Lego made sets are just the cherry on the cake. I never had parents prompting me to imaginate my own stuff but that will not be the same with my son. He has already learned to first build a set following the booklet (and learning building methods along) then think how he can modify it to fit his own liking.
"and why everyone's favourite Zelda game is the one that released when they were 10."
I'm willing to dispute that, lol, I couldn't get into Zelda games until two years ago because the ones that came out when I was 10 were super mid.
This is my first time reading one of your articles, but I enjoyed that a lot, very humorous and fairly insightful. Although I imagine that your other less subjective topics were probably even more insightful... Probably should go back and read those when I have a minute. X-D
"Wait, what's that you're asking? When was I the target age for LEGO toys? Well, my estimation would be around [the era I claim is the best.] Why do you ask...?"
That hits the nail on the head in a way I never could. It's the same argument every time, and you especially hear it from older fans towards Bionicle fans. "The toys you liked as a kid were stupid and bad, the toys I liked as a kid were perfect. It's just a happy coincidence that the best sets came out when I was small and had no perception of quality, and that sets got worse as I grew up and started becoming cynical"
@vizzitor said:
"
A great philosopher once said:
"I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!""
Not me old man. I’m going to be young forever. Forever. Forever…
As I was reading your article, I found myself agreeing with your points for why 1997-2004 was the best era, and then this made me grin:
"Wait, what's that you're asking? When was I the target age for LEGO toys? Well, my estimation would be around 1997-2004. Why do you ask...?"
I mean, of course. We're all going to have nostalgia for the things we grew up with.
However, I feel nostalgia for sets that were before my time. Not so much for Classic Castle and Classic Space, but for Classic Town sets like 6362. Old Town has a charm to it that I feel modern City can't capture, and I'm not just saying that out of nostalgia (or am I?). Classic Town is simple--6362 uses a mere 2x2 as a package--but not so simple that it looks like a bunch of blocks. It has enough detail to be recognizable, but not so much detail to be overwhelming.
I don't feel the same way for Classic Castle and Classic Space--the latter of which has the real "stranglehold", especially with the logo becoming THE space logo. To me, Castle and Space only improve with more detail added. Helmets with visors look better than helmets with no visors, especially in outer space. Gray castles look better than yellow ones.
Oh dang I forgot to put my favourite quote on nostalgia in this article! I found it on Twitter years ago but I never managed to re-find it but it has stuck with me ever since:
"If Goku had existed in the 1920s no one would have given a **** about Mickey Mouse..."
@Robot99 Okay this analogy doesn't work anymore after BOTW came out... ;P
Great stuff! Keep up with these articles and the videos (subscribe). I really like the insights of the inner-workings of large international companies.
A nice topic for an article would be on the topic of how many people are actually involved in the design of a set and how they interact with each other: Quality, Graphic Design, Accounting, etc.
Wouldn't it be an awesome twist if @poshhammer was actually with LEGO and this is the most well-planned AFOL marketing campaign ever? Maybe ex-LEGO designer, but not ex-LEGO employee...
When did Lego peak?
Choice 1: Early-mid 90s Pirates.
Choice 2: 2010ish Castle.
Choice 3: Right now.
Another smashing article!
I have no nostalgia for Pirates, Castles or Space. Anything with a set number greater than 3 figures doesn't count! My nostalgia is for 1969 and the invention of the miniwheel, which led to all my most loved childhood sets. Finally Legoland scale had moved from one of my 1st sets, the huge 315-3 to the revolutionary 603-3. Definitely the end of the clunky era!
My nostalga now isn't so much for Lego sets, but for non Lego items, like the Atari VCS and, of course, the superb Polaroid 1000 (both of which share space with my originals). They may prompt daft comments about getting real ones cheaper, but that really is totally missing the point!
Really enjoyed this one. You wouldn't know it to hear them go on about it, but the beaters of the pirates-castle-space drum have been having it pretty good these last few years. I want 3347 Chief in a set.
bah... I was born in '87 and I've got my first LEGO not before 1990 (it was 6923).
so, why i'm so nostalgic about '80s sets? Why I love Classic Town sets BEFORE my born? Why I hate sets from mid 90s - mid 2000s (when i was about 10 and perfectly in target)?
When I came back, I started to collect Modular Buildings because they were so timeless and retro vibes...
And about Zelda: I didn't play a game of the serie before 2010 (I was 23 at the time), when I played the first 6 games in order... so, why my favourite is Link's Awakening if I have no pink glasses of nostalgia about it?
These community posts are incredible! The Xbox gag is so relatable!
@poshhammer What's up with identical elements having different element IDs and sometimes even different design IDs? This is so confusing when looking for parts on Pick-a-Brick.
I'm in much the same 'nostalgia window' as you are, that's pretty crazy xD A couple of years behind because I didn't get into Lego themes until 1999 (although a lot of the 1998 sets were still on the shelves and in the catalogues then, so they get included too) and ending more in 2006 or so.
Personally, I wouldn't say that's when Lego was 'at its best' design-wise, but all the same... objective quality of the sets aside, it's still where my Lego affection lies, and a lot of the time I'd chose a set from that era over a more modern one (or a more classic one) because they meant more to me on a personal level. I can appreciate newer or older Lego as potentially 'better' without feeling the itch to own myself, whereas the sets from my specific nostalgia window can still make me feel like reaching for my wallet...
For me though, I think this might have to do with the way it was the storytelling of those years that grabbed me; I liked the sets more in association with that, rather than on their own. After all, it was the debut of the Lego Adventures magazine in 1999, featuring current themes and their characters in short comics, that sparked off my interest in Lego at all, and the various video games and online media that kept me invested - without those I wouldn't have half the attachment that I do to Lego even from my childhood era. I don't think its coincidence that the year my interest dropped off was the same year that several of the new themes (e.g. Aqua Raiders and Mars Mission), while cool looking, didn't provide named characters and so I didn't get attached to them in the same way.
Thanks for the reply @poshhammer! Might not be an intentional strategy, but I very much appreciate what the graphic designers (and other designers of course!) can put in, nice that my nerdiness is shared by the people making the products themselves!
@ThatBionicleGuy said:
"I'm in much the same 'nostalgia window' as you are"
How's your back doing these days? :')
@lordofthedreams9 The elements will be different from an engineering standpoint but not in utility. If you look REALLY closely they will have slightly differrent geometry. This was an absolute pain internally when designing too when we would be in a transitionary period...
@poshhammer said:
" @watcher21 said:
" @poshhammer , I'm very interested in seeing the amount of lego castle part sold by PAB.
I have the feeling lego is just being lazy and found out they can make more money by just selling the part instead of producing sets."
As usual (this is a running theme I have found with Brickset opinions) you are giving them too much credit assuming all branches of the company are aligned to underhandedly money grab from customers. The PAB people are very far removed from the SKU design team. I'm sure it was just someone in the brand store team thinking "yeah these are some cool elements, lets put that in!"
They are quite capable in overhandedly taking everyone's money instead of restoring to Machiavellian schemes to suppress a castle theme..."
If I buy 3 castle figs from PAB that will cost me €10-12, a 3/4 fig "battlepack" would be priced at 10,99-14,99 and would be cheaper.
I understand designing and so on is pricey and riskey.
I also know that there is a large number of people (and not only AFOL) buying the figs from resellers and likely also buying from PAB themselves.
That is why I am very interested in the PAB sales of castle part because that will confirm if there is a demand for castle.
Yes I buy from PAB and am happy it's possible but a few smaller castle sets would be nice, now we only have 2 massive sets.
As a fellow Millennial I really appreciate your specific POV through the lens of a designer @poshhammer. Always look forward to these articles and new Tubeside eps. Please keep it up! And fingers crossed for a Knights Kingdom II reference somewhere (that lore still occupies a couple of my brain cells).
@watcher21 Considering PAB is only in LEGO brand stores and LEGO products are sold... everywhere, I would say people who pick castle themed elements from it is absolutly no indicator of the global demand.
Something worth noting is that the period of 1997-2004, while noting as The LEGO Group's most innovative era was also right before they almost fell to bankruptcy. While we definitely still enjoy the themes and innovations from that era, it was also a Lessons Learned moment, which makes it an interesting form of nostalgia.
This is a great one. I found the last one of these about using loads of bricks to make up bigger ones quite unconvincing, but this is fantastic.
I was born in 1999. So you can work out for yourself what I may look upon fondly, but I would say that I know for certain that I'm not as nostalgic as most. (For example, the current iteration of the Harry Potter theme is the best there's been, and I don't think there's any getting around that.) Generally speaking I think Lego has got better each year, not worse.
The only thing I feel Lego should do but isn't doing, weirdly, is from before my time: the Western theme. Mercifully the cultural understanding of "Cowboys and Indians" has changed so that theme would not look the same today. But I've always felt there's a place for a historical, educational Lego theme. That could form a part of it.
Nostalgia for me is 90s and 00s but I would say the (almost) golden age is about now because there is such a wide selection available, with something for just about everyone including people who aren't really into LEGO, and that's enabled by how much the LEGO system and design have been refined. Can't get nice flowers out of blocky parts. I expect those things will keep on improving too.
Now, I say "almost" because there's no regular colorful homegrown science fiction/fantastical space theme, that line stopped with Galaxy Squad a decade ago.
(Ok, this year is a bit different with SPACE all over the place and I'm loving it but it's an exception.)
I guess the one thing that I really miss (and don't expect to come back) are smaller homegrown themes, new imaginative worlds, showing up often. Nowadays it's lots of IPs or bigbang multimedia story driven homegrown themes that hope to become IPs.
@freddy_hodson You got me, I made it all up to defend a company I don't work for anymore.
A lot of text and very little information
What I find interesting is that the classic Space theme ran for 7 years or more, but the modern recreations / callbacks seem to be mainly focused on the beginning of the run, with ships based on 928. Designs like 6891 or 1499, for example, don't seem to get anything like the same amount of attention.
@Space_Police said:
"A lot of text and very little information"
Nostalgia-based username checks out
Peak LEGO is definitely the years provided. Star Wars and BIONICLE, the two best lines LEGO has ever made.
Interesting and reasonable thoughts. That's a good point to remember, how small AFOL's are as a subset of people that buy Lego...
I complained for years that there was nothing like Galaxy Squad anymore, now we finally get the City space stuff, and... I've bought one set. And don't get me wrong, I'm super happy with it and it is exactly what I wanted! But I'm just a very very small drop in a gigantic bucket of consumers. They didn't make a whole new Space theme "for me".
I'm just happy kids like non-IP Space again, apparently. Would love to know how those sets are doing sales-wise as compared to the rest of City.
@poshhammer said:
" @watcher21 Considering PAB is only in LEGO brand stores and LEGO products are sold... everywhere, I would say people who pick castle themed elements from it is absolutly no indicator of the global demand."
I am talking about the PAB parts ordered on the website.
As someone in Generation X, we’re often the forgotten generation…so it’s nice to see Lego remember us. It helps…especially since we’re the generation that used to walk home from school, unlock the door, and play alone for hours until our parents came home.
@poshhammer said:
" @freddy_hodson You got me, I made it all up to defend a company I don't work for anymore."
I wasn't accusing you of making it up.
@Freddy_Hodson Apologies, can you elaborate on "unconvincing" then?
@watcher21 Ohhhh right! That is still a different team and leans more towards AFOLs using that service to bulk buy. The parts available there should only be from sets currently on the market, I'm like 99% sure.
"The AFOL community (not to be confused with adult LEGO fans)".
'Adult Fans of LEGO' and 'adult LEGO fans' is quite literally the same words in a different order (ignoring the inconsequential 'of' due to the reordering) so could someone please explain the difference? Is one simply more 'hardcore' than the other?
I'd like an article explaining why 1x1 round plates are used so frequently in places where 1x1 square plates are obviously a better fit.
@Doctor_Hugh said:
""The AFOL community (not to be confused with adult LEGO fans)". 'Adult Fans of LEGO' and 'adult LEGO fans' is quite literally the same words in a different order (ignoring the inconsequential 'of' due to the reordering) so could someone please explain the difference? Is one simply more 'hardcore' than the other?"
This is something I want to elaborate further on in a future article! What people here on Brickset and other LEGO forums would dub "AFOLs" is a specific community. Especially after 2020 with the 18+ black-box "adults welcome" stuff, there is now many, MANY more adults in the hobby who are not part of this community. They are Fans of LEGO, who are adults, but thdy are not AFOLs as we know that term to mean.
@labrat said:
"I'd like an article explaining why 1x1 round plates are used so frequently in places where 1x1 square plates are obviously a better fit. "
Build experience. They are easier to lay with 360+ degrees vs four specific directions. Does this go against the cardinality of LEGO bricks? You decide!
"The LEGO Group will not bring back a new castle theme (without lasers), modern children wouldn't be interested".
Castles were generally 500-1000 years old when the LEGO range existed. The Classic Castles line ran for 10 years but kept reinventing itself for a further 20 years, with a 3 year revival from 2010-12. Ten years on, castles are still generally 500-1000 years old so what has changed to disinterest children from a topic which has always been ancient history to them? The majority of children have phases of loving dinosaurs, space, castles, and the like (in general, not LEGO specifically) so why do LEGO believe children are no longer interested in these timeless themes?
I get worried that @poshhammer is ignoring an NDA.
@poshhammer said:
" @Doctor_Hugh said:
""The AFOL community (not to be confused with adult LEGO fans)".
'Adult Fans of LEGO' and 'adult LEGO fans' is quite literally the same words in a different order (ignoring the inconsequential 'of' due to the reordering) so could someone please explain the difference? Is one simply more 'hardcore' than the other?"
This is something I want to elaborate further on in a future article! What people here on Brickset and other LEGO forums would dub "AFOLs" is a specific community. Especially after 2020 with the 18+ black-box "adults welcome" stuff, there is now many, MANY more adults in the hobby who are not part of this community. They are Fans of LEGO, who are adults, but they are not AFOLs as we know that term to mean."
I look forward to that article as I clearly don't know what the term AFOL means to others. Which probably means I'm just an adult LEGO fan.
As much as I loved LEGO in the late eighties and early nineties, I firmly believe that LEGO is currently in an unparalleled renaissance right now. Friends, Minecraft, Speed Champions, Architecture, Winter Village, Art, Ideas, BLDP, CMF, Icons…..I could go on and on. And the evergreen themes of City and Creator are just killing it.
The real question we should be asking here is when did this renaissance start. I’m less sure on that.
My gut tells me 2007 when modulars started with 10182 Cafe Corner and the set so many of us know simply by its number 10179. It began (imo) the best castle line ever with the fantasy era 7094 Kings Castle Siege. And I can’t properly explain my still rampant infatuation with 4954 Model Town Home. But it also gave us that market street abomination and brittle brown.
2008 brought us Architecture, Death Star, Green Grocer, and two of my favorite sets ever in 7676 Gunship and 7628 Peril in Peru but immediately loses for 10192 Space Skulls.
2009 gave us the Winter Village and Space Police 3, not to mention 10194 Emerald Night, 10193 Medieval Market, and 10198 Tantive IV.
2010 brought us CMF, 10210 Imperial Flagship, 10213 Shuttle Adventure, and 8043 Excavator but also Prince of Persia and Kingdoms.
2011 delivered Ninjago, the woefully under appreciated Pirates of the Caribbean, Alien Conquest, and Pharaoh’s Quest themes but also 7879 Hoth Mess.
2012….though……Lord of the Rings, Marvel, DC, Friends, Ideas, Dino, Monster Fighters…10228 Haunted House, 10226 Sopwith Camel, 9500 Sith Fury, 9516 Jabba’s Palace…..
Golden age was obviously the 80s and 90s, with a touch of the 70s. Coincidentally, those are the decades of my childhood. If I'm being objective, though, it's fair to say the early aughts with Bionicle and Star Wars were probably a golden age, too. I'll be the first to admit that when Bionicle came out, I was one of those saying "that's not even Lego."
But I came around.
@PDelahanty said:
"As someone in Generation X, we’re often the forgotten generation…so it’s nice to see Lego remember us. It helps…especially since we’re the generation that used to walk home from school, unlock the door, and play alone for hours until our parents came home."
I wholeheartedly agree. That is why my classic Legoland Town and Space sets of the 1980'a and early 1990's will always be my goto favorites for some adult alone time to revel in the nostalgia that they provide me. Countless hours playing on the living room floor or in the basement on a 4x8 sheet of plywood.
@Doctor_Hugh said:
" @poshhammer said:
" @Doctor_Hugh said:
""The AFOL community (not to be confused with adult LEGO fans)".
'Adult Fans of LEGO' and 'adult LEGO fans' is quite literally the same words in a different order (ignoring the inconsequential 'of' due to the reordering) so could someone please explain the difference? Is one simply more 'hardcore' than the other?"
This is something I want to elaborate further on in a future article! What people here on Brickset and other LEGO forums would dub "AFOLs" is a specific community. Especially after 2020 with the 18+ black-box "adults welcome" stuff, there is now many, MANY more adults in the hobby who are not part of this community. They are Fans of LEGO, who are adults, but they are not AFOLs as we know that term to mean."
I look forward to that article as I clearly don't know what the term AFOL means to others. Which probably means I'm just an adult LEGO fan."
I mean, you can have a friend who is a girl, but that doesn’t mean she’s your girlfriend. Y’know? There are plenty of adults (celebrities, for example) who build sets and maybe even MOCs, but you need to be part of the community to be an “AFOL.”
@poshhammer - should not any discussion on LEGO and nostalgia at some point reference 10184 Town Plan? :o)
TLG is different toady. If it's better or worse it's subjective and up for debate. From the piece count to design language and main demographic or license preference over original themes. We'll enter the 90s nostalgic sets soon, as these kids will be in their 40s.
@Doctor_Hugh said:
"...why do LEGO believe children are no longer interested in these timeless themes?"
Research... it's called research, doctor!
(Although I have serious doubts about marketing studies in general, from personal experience I have to admit that children's interest in history in general seems to be declining at an alarming rate)
@Doctor_Hugh said:
"I look forward to that article as I clearly don't know what the term AFOL means to others. Which probably means I'm just an adult LEGO fan."
For me (personally), the term AFOL has taken on a sour taste lately...
I don't call myself an AFOL, I just like building with LEGO bricks.
The term AFOL has multiple meanings; they have all become pejorative in one way or the other and honestly, I wouldn't want to be associated with any of them (perhaps exempt one).
@YanVanLan said:
" For me (personally), the term AFOL has taken on a sour taste lately...
I don't call myself an AFOL, I just like building with LEGO bricks.
The term AFOL has multiple meanings; they have all become pejorative in one way or the other and honestly, I wouldn't want to be associated with any of them (perhaps exempt one)."
I refuse to let anyone else dictate what a term means or doesn’t mean to me. I’m proud to enjoy this hobby as an AFOL and accept that it includes both positive and negative connotations like any other group.
Bring back bionicles! Bring back bionicles! That shall be chant until they come back!
Those new Lego marvel action figures will never be able to replace them…
@yellowcastle:
I applaud you for that!
I’m not normally one to let others dictate what I am either,
But if a bunch of people say they’re a duck and I don’t recognise myself in any of them, I’m not quacking any time soon!
@mediAFOL said:
"I get worried that @poshhammer is ignoring an NDA."
I don’t think anything that has been written in either of their articles is beyond the knowledge of anyone who’s studied product planning, product design, or market research.
@Arnoldos:
And a mere five copies of that set have sold in the past six months. One New for $400, and four Used ranging from $160-220. And whopping 723 people have it on their Want Lists. Not exactly the millions of copies TLG is probably lookng to move.
@Binnekamp:
My very first set predated even the miniquins, and my second set was from the brief miniquin era. But my first blue Classic Space set just turned 10 this year. For all the Classic Space sets my brother and I had growing up, zero nostalgia for that color scheme, and incredibly disappointing that they lean so heavily into only about 23% of that entire subtheme.
@poshhammer:
Just yesterday, someone presented a problem where they were trying to design a bannister on computer, and after fussing around with the geometry for a while, they finally thought they had it sorted out...until they noticed that there were part intersections all the way down the railing. I played around with it myself, and found an alternate solution that appears to eliminate all the part intersections by replacing all of their complicated SNOT work with simple studs-up construction. Sometimes the reason we come up with complicated techniques is because there's no simple alternative. Frequently this results in unstable constrution, and use of slightly illegal techniques because there's no obvious way to avoid these while accomplishing what we want. In my case, I think one of my first Bricklink orders involved buying the parts to add a ventral quad-cannon to 7190, and my solution for how to build stuff upside-down that didn't have an inverse equivalent was to get a bunch of part 4081b and snap the "headlight" part off the plate to use as stud-reversing plates. And then the leftover 1x1 plates all got used on stuff where the broken side could be neatly hidden inside the model. BTW, you missed over half of the Wooden Ducks, not just one:
https://brickset.com/sets/tag-Lego-Duck
@BioChan:
Three times for me, and I was legally an adult when Bionicle launched.
@TheOtherMike:
Well, we were kids when we were kids, so most of us probably weren't even aware of how much our parents made. Best comparison in that case would be how much you got in weekly allowance. Assuming you got anything.
@PurpleDave said:"Sometimes the reason we come up with complicated techniques is because there's no simple alternative."
"I have written such a long letter because I did not have the time to write a short one."
@Robot99:
This one was definitely more opinion-driven, where the others offered insider insight into the inner workings of The LEGO Group. As such, this one is probably a lot less incendiary, as it doesn't directly contradict a lot of enshrined "facts", but there's definitely less meat on the bones.
@fakespacesquid:
Oh, man, I've been fighting that specific battle for over two decades, with people who actually _are_ my generation.
@Bricknave:
Classic Space wins out over Classic Castle for one very simple reason. Classic Space as a subtheme ran several years before bleeding into Futuron. Classic Castle was basically just a handful of sets (only one of which is really famous), before quickly jumping to the next subtheme. It's Black Falcons that seems to really be the main nostalgia driver for Castle.
@lordofthedreams9:
Elements that go out of production long enough to get delisted get assigned new EIDs when (if) they come back. I don't know why this is the case, but that's why most parts get a string of equivalent numbers. Design numbers, on the other hand, used to carry over from one revision to the next, which actually resulted in a lot of us receiving 4085b in dark-bley, decades after 4085c had been introduced. I don't quite believe they had the nine-year run claimed by Bricklink, but I did pull one from a sealed copy of 40076, along with a copy of element 4085d (I remember asking if they averaged out to a pair of 4085c). This no longer happens as major part revisions get new design ID numbers, so obsolete molds won't accidentally be pulled back into service
Different materials also need different molds. Different plastics shrink at different rates when they cool, so the mold cavities need to be different sizes to produce parts of the same size. ABS parts need one mold, polycarbonate molds a second, and the shift to MABS has required a third mold geometry. On the plus side, the shift to MABS means that transparent parts no longer require getting a new mold approved.
@watcher21:
PAB requires assembling custom orders. Packing sets involves a lot of efficiency by repetition. There's far more labor involved in pulling your individual PAB order than a stock set.
@Freddy_Hodson:
I don't know that a Western theme would work without at least acknowledging the antagonism baked into that scenario, in the same way that you can't really do a Pirates theme without piracy. And if you can't do the theme without that, then perhaps it's best that theme never be revisited.
@Doctor_Hugh:
My dad grew up before NASA existed, and is very much convinced that the Western is still a very popular genre. Since he left home for college, humankind put the first person in space, the first person on the moon, landed satellites on multiple planets within our solar system, and, oh yeah, a little thing I like to call "Star Wars" happened. Also, Castle is to European history as Western is to the US, so I'm not sure Castle was the massive success over here that many AFOLs believe it was. Very likely it was riding on German demand, while we were a not-unprofitable market (supporting this theory are the sheer number of early Castle sets that were exclusive to Europe).
@yellowcastle:
If you really examine the full offerings by year, I think you'll find that some themes get stuck in a rut, while others suddenly get a surge of inspiration. I suspect this has more to do with personnel changes on the various design teams, as someone who has been working on the same thing for 10+ years might be itching for a change of pace, and running out of ideas on how to move the theme forward. New blood will bring untapped perspective, and may even spur other members of their team to explore new ground.
@TheOtherMike said:
" @PurpleDave said:"Sometimes the reason we come up with complicated techniques is because there's no simple alternative."
"I have written such a long letter because I did not have the time to write a short one.""
Hush with extreme hushingness. There were 84 comments when I first opened the article, and I responded to at least six of them with that post.
“The era when so much innovation was happening”
1997-2003 was the era when the unchecked innovation put Lego a hairs breadth from bankruptcy. It was literally the worst period in the companies history. It almost ended them.
You're all wrong. ;)
The "Golden Age" of Lego is yet to come. It just keeps getting better! Not perfectly, not smoothly, and with the occasional failure, but overall, better and better with every passing year.
I'm not into every theme, but I like most. Today I built 75378 ... also several M-Tron and Space Police 2 sets. The other day, 6085 Black Monarch's Castle, the best Lego castle- IMO.
Next time: One Piece per two A4 pages: What's Up With That...? and No clutch power since 2019: What's Up With That...? or All money goes into development of coffe table books: What's Up With That...? or Minidolls can't be placed on studs: What's Up With That...? or Plastic softness reaching Sluban levels: What's Up With That...? and Ridiculously large boxes have to be at least filled with 51% air or more: What's Up With That...? (psychology, marketing, blah...)
@jkb said:
"Next time: One Piece per two A4 pages: What's Up With That...? and No clutch power since 2019: What's Up With That...? or All money goes into development of coffe table books: What's Up With That...? or Minidolls can't be placed on studs: What's Up With That...?"
“[User] in Germany”
Yeah, that tracks
@jkb said:
"Minidolls can't be placed on studs: What's Up With That...?"
Or.... Mini-dolls jam up my shredder: What's up with that?
@fakespacesquid said:
" @jkb said:
"Next time: One Piece per two A4 pages: What's Up With That...? and No clutch power since 2019: What's Up With That...? or All money goes into development of coffe table books: What's Up With That...? or Minidolls can't be placed on studs: What's Up With That...?"
“[User] in Germany”
Yeah, that tracks"
You’re better than this. These are all legitimate concerns and the article this week was unapologetically light on substance. I think we’re all looking forward to James’s take on some of the bigger AFOL concerns/perceptions.
@yellowcastle said:
" @fakespacesquid said:
" @jkb said:
"Next time: One Piece per two A4 pages: What's Up With That...? and No clutch power since 2019: What's Up With That...? or All money goes into development of coffe table books: What's Up With That...? or Minidolls can't be placed on studs: What's Up With That...?"
“[User] in Germany”
Yeah, that tracks"
You’re better than this. These are all legitimate concerns and the article this week was unapologetically light on substance. I think we’re all looking forward to James’s take on some of the bigger AFOL concerns/perceptions.
"
We’ll have to agree to disagree on some of that, there’s no way anyone in the community would still be in the dark about why instructions aren’t a seek-and-find anymore. The intent is for every set to be someone’s first set, anything should be approachable. And I just placed a minidoll on studs, right now. And they’ve made 1 (one) coffee table book, that no one knew about until it was released.
So 75% of the arguments are out the window, and it really feels like “oh, a reasonable case against some entrenched community viewpoints? Better wheel out some baseless, unrelated gripes”
(And while we’re at it, I’ve seen *more* clutch power than in the past, especially in clip/bar elements with the newer plastic. I’ve got no idea what he’s talking about there.)
(Edit: he’s since added in boxes with air. Again, no one who knows anything is framing this as a problem. It’s like still complaining that chip bags have air.)
@fakespacesquid said:
" @yellowcastle said:
" @fakespacesquid said:
" @jkb said:
"Next time: One Piece per two A4 pages: What's Up With That...? and No clutch power since 2019: What's Up With That...? or All money goes into development of coffe table books: What's Up With That...? or Minidolls can't be placed on studs: What's Up With That...?"
“[User] in Germany”
Yeah, that tracks"
You’re better than this. These are all legitimate concerns and the article this week was unapologetically light on substance. I think we’re all looking forward to James’s take on some of the bigger AFOL concerns/perceptions.
"
We’ll have to agree to disagree on some of that, there’s no way anyone in the community would still be in the dark about why instructions aren’t a seek-and-find anymore. The intent is for every set to be someone’s first set, anything should be approachable. And I just placed a minidoll on studs, right now. And they’ve made 1 (one) coffee table book, that no one knew about until it was released.
So 75% of the arguments are out the window, and it really feels like “oh, a reasonable case against some entrenched community viewpoints? Better wheel out some baseless, unrelated gripes”
(And while we’re at it, I’ve seen *more* clutch power than in the past, especially in clip/bar elements with the newer plastic. I’ve got no idea what he’s talking about there.)
(Edit: he’s since added in boxes with air. Again, no one who knows anything is framing this as a problem. It’s like still complaining that chip bags have air.)"
Boxes have gotten so much smaller recently so that one doesn’t seem to resonate with me. I can’t speak to any clutch concerns or the mini dolls, though. I’m all for attacking the merit of any claims, especially if they’re coming across as noise. Belittling all AFOLs from a single country is where you lost me.
6876 Y lego sigue sin realizar envíos a las islas Canarias, Ceuta y Melilla, y eso ha provocado que en 30 años de coleccionismo se hayan quedado los mejores juegos en el camino. Entonces..., ¿qué pasa con eso?.
La época dorada de lego para mí fue 'legoland y lego System', entre 1983 y 1996 aproximadamente. Especialmente entre 1986 y 1994. Oh.., amo todo 'Paradisa', y juegos con encanto de lego town, castle, train, model team, o piratas. Sin olvidarnos de los juegos de lego basic 5+ y basic 7+ como 6374, 6349, 6379, 6380, 6388, 6540, 6541, 6542, 6543, 6398, 720, 725, 730..., y muchos más.
¿Qué pasa con lego 6390 y lego 6376 -> legend 10037, y lego 6597 -> 10159 ?
Ahora estoy entrando en una segunda época de nostalgia que va de 2001 a 2013 aproximadamente, con sets como 7498, 7744, casas creator con piezas de tejados. ¡Echo de menos las casas con piezas de tejado!.
También echo de menos piezas que ya no se fabrican como los fantasmas de los castillos de 1990-1993, o las piezas de los troncos de las palmeras que vemos en juegos como 725, 6376, paradisa,...
Pero ya no se trata de nostalgia, es que siendo objetivo me parecen mucho más atractivos y con mucho más encanto los juegos de lego de cuando tenía 10 años, como el 6349, por ejemplo. Y ya no solo es el contenido, también echo de menos las cajas de doble tapa, la calidad del ladrillo, etc.
@PurpleDave said:" @TheOtherMike said:" @PurpleDave said:"Sometimes the reason we come up with complicated techniques is because there's no simple alternative."
"I have written such a long letter because I did not have the time to write a short one.""
Hush with extreme hushingness. There were 84 comments when I first opened the article, and I responded to at least six of them with that post."
I wasn't calling you out; your line that I quoted just reminded me of a quote that I'd seen.
"...landed satellites on multiple planets within our solar system..."
I am calling you out on this one, as the pedant/space buff in me will not let that one go. We've landed space probes, not satellites. Satellites orbit celestial bodies. If they're landing on planets, something's gone wrong, or they were only intended to be temporary in the first place.
@yellowcastle said:
"As much as I loved LEGO in the late eighties and early nineties, I firmly believe that LEGO is currently in an unparalleled renaissance right now. Friends, Minecraft, Speed Champions, Architecture, Winter Village, Art, Ideas, BLDP, CMF, Icons…..I could go on and on. And the evergreen themes of City and Creator are just killing it.
The real question we should be asking here is when did this renaissance start. I’m less sure on that.
My gut tells me 2007 when modulars started with 10182 Cafe Corner and the set so many of us know simply by its number 10179. It began (imo) the best castle line ever with the fantasy era 7094 Kings Castle Siege. And I can’t properly explain my still rampant infatuation with 4954 Model Town Home. But it also gave us that market street abomination and brittle brown.
2008 brought us Architecture, Death Star, Green Grocer, and two of my favorite sets ever in 7676 Gunship and 7628 Peril in Peru but immediately loses for 10192 Space Skulls.
2009 gave us the Winter Village and Space Police 3, not to mention 10194 Emerald Night, 10193 Medieval Market, and 10198 Tantive IV.
2010 brought us CMF, 10210 Imperial Flagship, 10213 Shuttle Adventure, and 8043 Excavator but also Prince of Persia and Kingdoms.
2011 delivered Ninjago, the woefully under appreciated Pirates of the Caribbean, Alien Conquest, and Pharaoh’s Quest themes but also 7879 Hoth Mess.
2012….though……Lord of the Rings, Marvel, DC, Friends, Ideas, Dino, Monster Fighters…10228 Haunted House, 10226 Sopwith Camel, 9500 Sith Fury, 9516 Jabba’s Palace….." Also, TOY STORY!
@yellowcastle said:
" @fakespacesquid said:
" @jkb said:
"Next time: One Piece per two A4 pages: What's Up With That...? and No clutch power since 2019: What's Up With That...? or All money goes into development of coffe table books: What's Up With That...? or Minidolls can't be placed on studs: What's Up With That...?"
“[User] in Germany”
Yeah, that tracks"
You’re better than this. These are all legitimate concerns and the article this week was unapologetically light on substance. I think we’re all looking forward to James’s take on some of the bigger AFOL concerns/perceptions.
"
I mean, you're not wrong, but neither is @fakespacesquid. Some of the issues presented are ones that I think are specific to European production, because I see almost zero evidence to support the existence of these catastrophic problems. However, I did run into translucency issues with _some_ early copies of 70904. In those same copies, I also had clutch issues for 1x1 round plates (one of the parts that was oddly translucent). And in those same copies I found two different variants of 2x2 round plate that had the pip on either the upper left or upper right stud. The other copies had fully opaque parts with excellent clutch and all of the pips on the 2x2 round plates were consistently on the same stud. Box markings also included a different production number. So, logic suggests one batch was packaged in one plant, and the other batch in a different one. And since the bad copies show problems that I only hear about from Europeans, I have to assume the oddball parts all came from Europe, while the good copies did not.
The dig at Germans does grow tiresome, but so do many of the complaints that seem to only be made by Germans. Some of that seems to stem from the fact that themes have shifted away from German tastes, and the German market has shifted towards competitors in return. Where those of us who are thrilled with the current offerings might be quick to forgive some minor faults, those who are already dissatisfied are just as quick to voice their opinions.
@fakespacesquid:
Besides the one up for preorder right now, there's also the Ferrari book. And there's the print-to-order book before that, which was run through Unbound. I suspect there were others that I'm just not remembering right now, and that excluding all the DK books that come with minifigs.
@TheOtherMike:
Fair enough, on both points. Though we've definitely deorbited several satellites into planets (particularly the gas giants), I guess we can't really call that landing them.
Just an FYI, The Legend of Zelda came out in July of 87, so I was still 6 for another a month. Of course I didn't get a NES until 88, and am not sure if I got Zelda that year or in 89, but at most I was 9 when I got he greatest Zelda game.
But I got back into Lego collecting nostalgia. I discovered a site called Bricklink and that I can piece together Classic Space sets. Many were outrageosuly expensive because they had printed parts or rare parts, but many could easily be had for $5-10. Well I exhausted all the affordable sets in less than 6 months, but realized that the Star Wars sets are awesome and the galaxy far, far away grows bigger every day and now even includes a second galaxy that is far, far, far away. And lets be honest, Star Wars is the definition of nostalgia!
So as much as I would love Classic Space to make a comeback, I actually prefer the one set every 10 years deal, honestly, a new Classic Space line would not be all that cool, especially when compared to Star Wars and NASA sets.
I'm quite glad that when Lego is leaning into nostalgia they produce sets of other things I am nostalgic for, the NES, Pac Man, Seinfeld, and of course Star Wars and NASA.
I started scrutinizing the divide between "objective qualities" and "pure nostalgia goggles" way back in college, from 2007 to 2011. With the passing of over a decade since then, I stand by my earlier conclusions. Looking at the whole of LEGO's output, including the wooden toy beginnings, there definitely was a true Golden Age from 1987 to 1996. With Kjeld's creation of a "System within the system" at the end of the 1970s and the rapid evolution of parts and set design throughout the 1980s, the creation of factions in Space, cohesion in parts usage and play elements across Town, Boat, and Trains, and the birth of the Pirates theme, you have the quintessential "LEGO System".
Here's the other thing I realized: just because the "Golden Age" was 1987 through 1996, it doesn't mean years before 1987 and after 1996 were "Dark Ages". Truly, the Golden Age wouldn't have been so golden were it not for the continuing advancement and output of sets and pieces from 1978 onwards. And as a child of the entire 1990s, no way would I besmirch the names of great themes like Adventurers, Aquazone, and of course, Star Wars, just because many of their sets were released from 1997 to 1999. However, as everyone noted, the late 90s and early 2000s were a rough time for the LEGO company, and you could see it in a lot of the sets, especially if you were a child for the entire duration of the 90s as I was. The Town theme, which was the backbone of my collection in 1995 and in which almost no set looked bad, was my most hated theme by 1998, three short years later. It was obvious the theme had gone retrograde. Even Castle was slipping, and Space was put out to pasture rather abruptly. If you were a younger child and all you knew was Town Junior, degraded Pirates, and ZNAP from your formative first years of LEGO, you can be forgiven for not knowing the glory that came before.
But I digress. Yes, there was a Golden Age, but the years after it were not moribund. Even after the turn of the century, Star Wars and BIONICLE offered shining points of starlight in the gloom, buoyed by things like Mindstorms and Racers to a lesser degree. And then came the Silver Age, a renaissance of beauty and complexity with the finalization of modulars with the release of Green Grocer and the numerous larger sets released around the same time. I'd place the start of the Silver Age around 2009 or 2010. The big question is: are we still in the Silver Age? Or did it transform into something better? Or slightly worse? Too soon to tell, perhaps.
If there truly was a "dark age", probably the pre-minifigure era would be it. LEGO is so defined in part by the presence of the minifigure as a signature toy that for most people alive today, dealing with LEGO sets that are just bricks, however colorful or diverse, would be a huge step backward in appreciation knowing what LEGO would do once the minifigure came on the scene.
Anyway, that is my take. Open to seeing how things change over time. As cynical adulthood tries harder and harder with each passing year to squelch the remaining fibers of childhood enjoyment from my heart and memories, I would be more than happy to see a new Golden Age proclaimed for LEGO. But what we have now is still pretty great!
@PurpleDave sadly lego only lets us PAB castle armies instead of making some smaller castle sets.
Hard to tell what gives lego more profit, they have more shipping cost, VIP points and GWP but less leftover stock or development/promotion cost and retail doesn't take a piece of the cake.
@Agent00Z @Faefrost I point this out in the article. The point isn't to actually argue that that era is the best, the point is each has pros and cons and nostalgia can give us a bias.
@yellowcastle Apologies!
@jkb I suspect this is written in bad faith but I will answer them anyway:
- I answered this in a previous article. It is to make the building experience easier for new people, rather than just high affinity people.
- They don't put all their money into making coffee table books, what are you on about...?
- The minidoll can be studded down. If you mean while sitting, you use a wall element to grab their feet. I will admit when I had to design for minidolls it could be a bit of a pain vs Minifigures, but they are for a different target group with different design priorities.
- If you miss Clutch Powers you can buy it here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lego-Adventures-Clutch-Powers-DVD/dp/B00318CV1Y
@fakespacesquid No Germanphobia in my comment section please.
@Poshhammer - no worries. You can make it all up to us by recreating the 10184 photo with your cottage. :o)
@pazza_inter said:
"bah... I was born in '87 and I've got my first LEGO not before 1990 (it was 6923).
so, why i'm so nostalgic about '80s sets? Why I love Classic Town sets BEFORE my born? Why I hate sets from mid 90s - mid 2000s (when i was about 10 and perfectly in target)?
When I came back, I started to collect Modular Buildings because they were so timeless and retro vibes...
And about Zelda: I didn't play a game of the serie before 2010 (I was 23 at the time), when I played the first 6 games in order... so, why my favourite is Link's Awakening if I have no pink glasses of nostalgia about it?"
I agree. I like a lot of sets and themes that are from before my time. My first sets were from the very late 80s but I also like early 80s themes like Classic Space and Classic Castle very much. It's just because I like that style of sets so much. For me the golden era was between 1979-1997.
@poshhammer said:
@jkb I suspect this is written in bad faith but I will answer them anyway:
- I answered this in a previous article. It is to make the building experience easier for new people, rather than just high affinity people.
- They don't put all their money into making coffee table books, what are you on about...?
- The minidoll can be studded down. If you mean while sitting, you use a wall element to grab their feet. I will admit when I had to design for minidolls it could be a bit of a pain vs Minifigures, but they are for a different target group with different design priorities.
- If you miss Clutch Powers you can buy it here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lego-Adventures-Clutch-Powers-DVD/dp/B00318CV1Y
@fakespacesquid No Germanphobia in my comment section please.]]
Yeah, sorry, forgot about that article =/
Coffee table books: totally being sarcastic here, but first there was that LEGO poll about what merchandise we want then they release that STUPIDLY overpriced Book for 15.000 studs! This is a price for higher learning grade textbooks or antiques! I have a distaste where the company is going here...
Of course, I meant sitting dolls down. Vehicles come with that wall element, but other seating occasions, like furniture, don't. If you seat them, they immediately tip over or fall off soon. Not so great for play.
German is 30% complaints and 60% knowing stuff better.
@jkb
- Yeah It's a weird move, pick it up in a charity shop in 10 years.
- Haha on the Theatre School (41714) balconies I spent ages trying to make seats that they dont fall out of and into the structure.
- What's the other 10%?
@yellowcastle https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-fb89fbefba4cb14e8e5f9a097856c551-lq
@poshhammer said:
" @yellowcastle https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-fb89fbefba4cb14e8e5f9a097856c551-lq"
I feel triggered.
If it weren't for nostalgia, I wouldn't care a wit about any of this. Arguably, this is true of any AFOL that had a Dark Ages.
In fact, I'm already nostalgic for this article (but only some of the comment section). :P
Can't wait to buy the set that portrays this article. :)
@yellowcastle said:
" @poshhammer said:
" @yellowcastle https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-fb89fbefba4cb14e8e5f9a097856c551-lq"
I feel triggered.
"
Now, I'll never get to sleep!!!
@poshhammer said:
" @jkb
-What's the other 10%?"
Actual grammar and vocabulary.
I own a number of friends sets (including 41714 ; love it!) and worse off than seats are benches and stools. If I was the target cutomer, I'd think: Really? Can't stay seated? Barbie did(n't) it first!
I think if the hop was wider it would allow at least one stud receptor.
@jkb said:
Coffee table books: totally being sarcastic here, but first there was that LEGO poll about what merchandise we want then they release that STUPIDLY overpriced Book for 15.000 studs! This is a price for higher learning grade textbooks or antiques! I have a distaste where the company is going here...
_______________________________________________
Wow...can't recall any of my university textbooks being that expensive - even the very specialised ones. As for antiques, that book (and others) will be the antiques of the future!
Look at the prices of some of the early D&D books or the early hardback Harry Potters. I recall moans and groans about the price when they were issued but look at them now.
Current collectables eventually become antiques. Yes - the book is expensive but I am willing to bet that it will be a much sought-after item in the future.
Just IMHO....tschuss
Nostalgia is a tricky one - it depends so much on what else was happening at the time, probably more so than the sets themselves. Trouble is, you can never really go back, but you can go forward.
As a kid / teen I enthusiastically collected castles through the 80’s and 90’s and I still value them and have them in fairly good shape. No missing pieces, broken clips, faded torsos or cracked baseplates! Fright knights were the start of my disinterest in acquiring any further sets, with my interest only picking up again with more modern offerings.
Even as a child I was irked by the lack of any detailed interiors beyond an occasional tower space or. Cell, and frustrated that I had only chunky blocks for building furnishings (which seldom really fitted in the cramped spaces). When my own kids came along and things like Belville and Friends arrived on the scene, it was a revelation, and I have appreciated the newer parts, colour and building techniques that modern sets offer. For me, the choice between 4 new copies of 31120 vs one secondhand 6074 is pretty easy - I have little desire to either fill in the gaps in my collection with old sets or see them re-released or similar sets be made. Building old sets makes me appreciate how far Lego has come and I find myself thinking about how I can modify them with what I have learned from building newer sets. The kids are now in their teens and still enjoy building both solo and with me, as well as using mixed and matched CMF’s in board games and RPG’s - quite possibly one day we will all look back at these times as having the best Lego sets ever……..
I can understand the desire for new sets with clever techniques within your favourite genre, but clever building techniques can be found in multi-colored mini-doll sets or other themes outside your preferred genre or on sites such as Rebrickable. The upside of not having your niche catered to might be that you find something else you also like (although that could have a downside for your wallet and available space).
@Belboz said:
" @jkb said:
Coffee table books: totally being sarcastic here, but first there was that LEGO poll about what merchandise we want then they release that STUPIDLY overpriced Book for 15.000 studs! This is a price for higher learning grade textbooks or antiques! I have a distaste where the company is going here...
_______________________________________________
Wow...can't recall any of my university textbooks being that expensive - even the very specialised ones. As for antiques, that book (and others) will be the antiques of the future!
Look at the prices of some of the early D&D books or the early hardback Harry Potters. I recall moans and groans about the price when they were issued but look at them now.
Current collectables eventually become antiques. Yes - the book is expensive but I am willing to bet that it will be a much sought-after item in the future.
Just IMHO....tschuss
"
But here's a question I have: I there real value in something that was PLANNED to be a (valuable) collectible? When I look at other stuff that is being collected, it usually started of as something rather mundane, that became interesting and thus, valueable, because of its intrinsic features.
I am most likely a lot older than others on here. I have no idea about millennials or Generation Z and, last I knew, Generation X was fronted by Billy Idol!
Having grown up in the 1970s, LEGO was much more about building blocks and much less about sets. Basically, LEGO was another construction toy just like sticklebricks and meccano. As a result, I cannot say I am nostalgic for any particular LEGO sets as we didn't (IIRC) think of them as sets but just as more building blocks to use to create our own stuff.
TBH, I couldn't care less about what era was best. As I've said before, I got back into LEGO for the D&D set and I am just enjoying selecting sets which take my fancy. I am also enjoying collecting sets for my grand-daughter who has just reached DUPLO starting age.
@jkb said:
But here's a question I have: I there real value in something that was PLANNED to be a (valuable) collectible? When I look at other stuff that is being collected, it usually started of as something rather mundane, that became interesting and thus, valueable, because of its intrinsic features.
_____________________________________________________
IMHO, anything which is related to a theme - whether intended as a collectable or not - has the potential to have future value. The real difficulty is choosing which items - out of the many thousands of actual or potential collectables - are most likely to hold their value or gain in value.
LEGO is just one of the areas where I have started to collect sets and items which I think may be valuable in the future - all of which are being left for my grand-daughter. That book is one such item.
I just hope for her sake that my instincts are correct.
@Lego_Lord_Mayorca said:
"If there truly was a "dark age", probably the pre-minifigure era would be it. LEGO is so defined in part by the presence of the minifigure as a signature toy that for most people alive today, dealing with LEGO sets that are just bricks, however colorful or diverse, would be a huge step backward in appreciation knowing what LEGO would do once the minifigure came on the scene."
Classic would like a word with you.
I definitely have nostalgia, so I collect the old sets I was too poor to get as a child. For me, this means late 80s through the mid 90s, primarily. I've been building my way through a lot of greats, mostly castle and space, and I've got a few pirates sets I'd still like to get my hands on.
Right now, I can look over at my shelves and see 5x raised baseplate with ramp sets, and a wide variety of other castle and pirate stuff. This is what would have thrilled child me, and it still does! I do love that Lego has made some throwback type sets; I have the Lion Knights Castle and Eldorado waiting for display space.
I'm fine with them keeping the number of nostalgia sets somewhat lower. My wallet can only handle so much, and with BLDP existing and filling some of that gap, it's hard to buy, let alone store, that many sets.
My child golden age was definitely the late 80s and early 90s, which I'm working on fulfilling. But now is an incredible time to be a Lego fan. There are so many themes that vary so much: from the awesome new City Space, to Monkie Kid and Ninjago, Friends, Dreamzzz, C3i1, Speed Champions, Botanicals, Architecture. They really have something for everyone, and it's lovely. I think both are golden ages and that's fine. People can be mad but hey, that's on them. Better to have fun with it than spend the time complaining online!
@poshhammer said:
" @fakespacesquid No Germanphobia in my comment section please."
What about germaphobia?
While I still have plenty of nostalgia for the sets and themes of my youth (mid 90s - early 2000s), I feel like LEGO is one of the only toys that has managed to get cooler since I was a kid. Child-me would have killed for all of the creativity and diversity we now have in minifigures, and would have loved all of the new colors and parts that are now commonplace.
However I do have one question that maybe @poshhammer could answer: has LEGO really determined that modern kids wouldn't be interested in "classic" themes like castle or pirates? While that's quite possible, I know that my own kids (girls ages 9, 8, and 6) are constantly building LEGO castles with their spare bricks.
@jjr_2009 said:
".However I do have one question that maybe @poshhammer could answer: has LEGO really determined that modern kids wouldn't be interested in "classic" themes like castle or pirates? While that's quite possible, I know that my own kids (girls ages 9, 8, and 6) are constantly building LEGO castles with their spare bricks."
My worry is that the success or lack of success with the most recent Castle and Pirates themes may have leant too much weight to LEGO. I simply felt these newest iterations were just really weak and regurgitated. Yet, Barracuda Bay and El Dorado were fantastic. And the BLDP castle sets seem to show strong interest.
@Belboz said:
" @jkb said:
Coffee table books: totally being sarcastic here, but first there was that LEGO poll about what merchandise we want then they release that STUPIDLY overpriced Book for 15.000 studs! This is a price for higher learning grade textbooks or antiques! I have a distaste where the company is going here...
_______________________________________________
Wow...can't recall any of my university textbooks being that expensive - even the very specialised ones.
"
Law school textbooks usually cost $250-$350 each, per class.
I don't know if it could be put into the form of a "What's up with that?..." but I would love to see an article about the evolution of instructions. Transitions from hand-drawn to CAD, move toward less parts per step, the inclusion (or not) of digital instructions, etc, etc.
@poshhammer, If nostalgia were the force that you and others claim, you would be able to see it from the relationship between the cohort to which someone belonged and their LEGO preferences.
Specifically:
1. They would have no interest in sets and themes from before their most impressionable childhood years,
2. They would have no interest in sets and themes from after their most impressionable childhood years...
3. With the exception to (2) of sets/themes that are deliberate appeals to nostalgia.
These are testable hypotheses. If you're right, no-one under the age of 50 bought or had an interest in Galaxy Explorer 10497; no-one over the age of 35 cares for super hero sets/themes (they didn't begin until 2002); and no-one under the age of 45 likes grey/blue/trans-yellow era Classic Space to give a few examples.
I wonder whether any of those expectations are true. I'm only a sample size of one, but I know that it's not all true for me. Sure, I'm of a certain age and like grey/blue/trans-yellow Classic Space, but I also like super hero LEGO. It's the second largest part of my display collection. How do you account for that? I really like moulded LEGO animals even though the first one wasn't released until after my childhood. How does that fit with the nostalgia thesis? How do you explain that some AFOLs like Classic Space periods that were released before they were born?
As someone who worked for LEGO, you may have access to marketing data that proves that I - and others like me who don't support your nostalgia thesis - are so few as to be statistically insignificant and that 1, 2 and 3 above are true. If so, I would love to see those data.
@Zander
I don't think anyone is making your 3 claims on nostalgia. What we are saying is that folks will tend to have a higher view of the things that came out when they were children. That doesn't mean that they automatically disregard anything before or after, no one is claiming that. But they will put those themes on a pedestal and (possibly) view them as better than they actually were.
There might not be much evidence for your 3 claims, because no one is making them.
@Zander said:
"I'm only a sample size of one,"
Good market research.
@Lego_Lord_Mayorca said:
"I started scrutinizing the divide between "objective qualities" and "pure nostalgia goggles" way back in college, from 2007 to 2011. With the passing of over a decade since then, I stand by my earlier conclusions. Looking at the whole of LEGO's output, including the wooden toy beginnings, there definitely was a true Golden Age from 1987 to 1996."
I really appreciate the thought you put into this. It's pure snobbery to dismiss an appreciation for the achievements of the past as nothing more than nostalgia for youth. I get tired of reading those takes. A historian will recognize that there are certain moments when everything comes together and people achieve something amazing, something beautiful. Those moments hold people's attention for decades, sometimes even centuries or millennia. Why did Greek philosophers command the wistful pining of the world for so long? Why do people still listen, enraptured, to Beethoven and Bach, and why will they continue to look at theirs as the golden age of music centuries after pop-superstar-billionaries' records have gone silent? Why am I currently rehabilitating a 1938 telephone to make it fully operational for my everyday use?
Lego may not be quite as earth-shattering as Plato, but it's still completely reasonable to look at it from a historic inflection perspective, the magic moment when everything came together for the Lego System. My childhood partially overlapped the moment, but I can't write it off as pure nostalgia of youth because the overlap was only partial. The minifigure completely transformed the Lego experience. The open-ended role play historical-fantasy-contemporary themes that developed around it created an explosion of imaginative potential that somehow unified disparate play styles into a single cohesive product. That was something special, and the toys that came out of it still resonate, even though the most formative of them happened before my time. I think Space leapt right into its Golden Age in 1979—thereby explaining the enduring Galaxy Explorer phenomenon—while Castle matured somewhat later in the mid-1980s, and Town perhaps slightly later still. By 1987 all were indeed exhibiting the peak maturation of their concepts, followed by several years of nonstop hits as those concepts were mined to their potential. In the end, it fizzled out in a sad loss of self-confidence. If there's ever a wave of Jack Stone homages, we'll write those off as blinkered kids. But I'm going to give the kids that could pick a 497 or a 6399 or a 6067 off the shelves their due: they were living in the best of times.
@jkb:
What coffee table book was available for points again? I don’t remember getting one, unless that was the s softcover Ferrari book.
And do you mean “hip”, not “hop”. If so, the problem is it would look the most awkward ever if they sold toys where the human characters all had one giant round cavity _right there_. Like parents-would-fly-to-Denmark-and-burn-the-country-down awkward.
Also, they made a few solid gold Kanohi, a few more sterling silver Krana, and one solid platinum Mask of Light. Those were all intended to be rare collectibles. Maybe the most recent winning bid for a gold Hau is a bit higher than intended, but even melted down these would all have appreciated vs their original declared value, and would continue to do so.
@poshhammer said:
"- What's the other 10%?"
I just have to say it would be hilarious if it was math.
@Belboz:
Assuming studs=points, that comes to a mere $115 and change. I think I had at least one in the ballpark, back in the 1900’s, and I wasn’t even a biochem or comp sci major. I think they had one or two that ran quite a bit higher, and the comp sci books were often updated so frequently that the bookstore wouldn’t even buy them back.
@fakespacesquid said:
" @Zander
I don't think anyone is making your 3 claims on nostalgia. What we are saying is that folks will tend to have a higher view of the things that came out when they were children. That doesn't mean that they automatically disregard anything before or after, no one is claiming that. But they will put those themes on a pedestal and (possibly) view them as better than they actually were.
There might not be much evidence for your 3 claims, because no one is making them. "
Sorry, @fakespacesquid, that's just backpedalling. Nowhere in James' article is there any mention of the possibility that the affinity that some AFOLs have for certain older sets/ranges could be due to anything other than nostalgia. In fact, he dismisses peremptorily any possibility that past sets/ranges could genuinely be superior to today's. He is not alone in being of that view. Whenever nostalgia comes up - here on Brickset or in other LEGO fora - concessions by the nostalgia camp to other possible explanations are rare and made grudgingly.
Whether or not anyone is making my three claims has no bearing on whether or not evidence exists for them. LEGO may well have market research on the age demographics of buyers (or intended recipients) of 10497 Galaxy Explorer for example. I suspect that the age distribution of 10497's buyers is very much more even than the nostalgia brigade would have us believe.
@poshhammer said:
" @Zander said:
"I'm only a sample size of one,"
Good market research.
"
I brought up that I'm a sample size of one specifically to acknowledge that I may not be representative. Your repeating it doesn't make it any less of an acknowledgement. I mentioned myself by way of illustration/example only; it's clear that I do not consider myself as definitive which is why I asked if there are market research data supporting 1, 2 and 3. Are there?
Even though I pined for LEGO Space as a kid in the 70s, I never actually bought any LEGO for myself until about 2014 or 2015 when I discovered the Super Heroes lines. Given the choice, it’s DC and Marvel over Classic Space all day, every day. Actually, if LEGO didn’t hold both licenses - meaning the figures and sets mesh perfectly - I wouldn’t have started collecting. So, I guess all that boils down to now being my golden age of LEGO!
@Zander said:
" @fakespacesquid said:
" @Zander
I don't think anyone is making your 3 claims on nostalgia. What we are saying is that folks will tend to have a higher view of the things that came out when they were children. That doesn't mean that they automatically disregard anything before or after, no one is claiming that. But they will put those themes on a pedestal and (possibly) view them as better than they actually were.
There might not be much evidence for your 3 claims, because no one is making them. "
Sorry, @fakespacesquid, that's just backpedalling. Nowhere in James' article is there any mention of the possibility that the affinity that some AFOLs have for certain older sets/ranges could be due to anything other than nostalgia. In fact, he dismisses peremptorily any possibility that past sets/ranges could genuinely be superior to today's. He is not alone in being of that view. Whenever nostalgia comes up - here on Brickset or in other LEGO fora - concessions by the nostalgia camp to other possible explanations are rare and made grudgingly.
Whether or not anyone is making my three claims has no bearing on whether or not evidence exists for them. LEGO may well have market research on the age demographics of buyers (or intended recipients) of 10497 Galaxy Explorer for example. I suspect that the age distribution of 10497's buyers is very much more even than the nostalgia brigade would have us believe.
@poshhammer said:
" @Zander said:
"I'm only a sample size of one,"
Good market research.
"
I brought up that I'm a sample size of one specifically to acknowledge that I may not be representative. Your repeating it doesn't make it any less of an acknowledgement. I mentioned myself by way of illustration/example only; it's clear that I do not consider myself as definitive which is why I asked if there are market research data supporting 1, 2 and 3. Are there? "
*You* created claims 1-3. If they came from the post, or the comments, then it'd make sense to ask for evidence. But it's not backpedaling to say that you're using a strawman.
If you were expecting an article on nostalgia to say "Actually nostalgia doesn't exist, and things *were* better in the good old days when you were 10," then I think this article just isn't for you. @poshhammer also leads with "You can make a case for any era of The LEGO Group's history being the best era," which absolutely leaves room for whatever concerns you have
@AllenSmith said:
"If there's ever a wave of Jack Stone homages, we'll write those off as blinkered kids."
I think you mean, "If there's ever a wave of Jack Stone homages, we riot."
@Zander Thank you for your insightful and good comments.
Like you I question many of the arguments made here. It would be interesting to see whether only 40+ 'nostalgia-biased' AFOLs bought any of the classic-inspired sets, and also to consider the potential amount of kids who would have liked POBB or LKC for example (they are just obviously well outside their price range).
@poshhhamer It's quite a grandiose claim to argue that any positive view of things that have 'come before' is purely due to 40+ year old, selfish, nostalgia-biased AFOLs.
For me, I'm Gen Z. All of the classic themes like Town, Pirates, Castle, Space, Western, Adventurers, existed decades before I was born (or far too young in the case of Adventurers).
Yet there are many lego fans my age and younger who love these themes, or at the very least have a positive view of them.
We didn't play with them, never saw them on store shelves, never looked at them longingly in catalogs.
So @poshhammer where do the positive views come from, if 'nostalgia-bias' is impossible?
In my own case, Lego wasn't a 'thing' in Australia when my parents were young so 'nostalgia-bias' didn't come from them either.
Maybe it's just because they are cool sets and fun ideas for themes??
Indeed I don't understand why you are apparently incapable of separating an idea/theme from specific sets. I.e An AFOL might be nostalgic for that 1984 King's Castle they had as a child, but that is neither here nor there to the overall interest in a 'castle' theme, noting that 'castle' actually means 'mediaeval' or 'mediaeval fantasy'.
According to yourself and Lego, no one on Earth except those pesky 'nostalgia-biased' AFOLs likes mediaeval fantasy. Which is interesting considering that D&D, LOTR, The Hobbit, Zelda, Clash of Clans, World of Warcraft, and many other popular franchises are medieval fantasy. Even Minecraft is set in the 12th century with castles, bows n arrows, swords, horses and skeletons.
We often see people refer to 'market research' that proves no kids on earth like mediaeval, pirates or even space anymore, yet we never see this 'evidence'. I'm interested as to how this is actually collected; do you show kids pictures of really old and basic pirate sets, compare them to the latest Ninjago mech and when the child obviously chooses the latter, use that as definitive evidence? Or do you just ask kids whether they think pirates are cool? Do you consider the fact kids might like ninjas AND pirates?
Also, note to poshhammer and everyone else who doesn't like pre-2024 lego themes. Can you guys at least use an example other than Yellow Castle? It comes across as rather lazy strawmanning.
No AFOL to my knowledge wants Lego to rerelease a perfect copy of Yellow Castle with it's brick-built horses and basic walls. Let alone for that to compete with contemporary sets like the Fortrex.
All fans suggest is some sort of Castle/Mediaeval Fantasy theme, which may or may not take inspiration from existing factions, lore, and ideas for sets (such as Forestmen hiding amongst rocks and trees or a lonely inn guarded by a small tower).
But let's consider City airports for a moment. According to @poshhammer, I should be completely die-hard biased towards the 2008 City airport, which I had as a kid. And yes I do recall it fondly since my father bought it for me. However, I would not say the 2008 set is the best, or even my favourite.
In this century I'd rate 2010's airport (which I do not own) as the best one due to it's substantial terminal, plus control tower, ground crew and aircraft.
But for the best lego airport, I'd again return to years before I even existed, to 1994 Century Skyway. That set has a whole airport, with a very decent terminal building, control tower, passenger plane plus cargo helicopter plus smaller helicopter, plus ground vehicles and minifigures.
In my lifetime Lego airports have had smaller and smaller terminal buildings until there was no 'airport' in the airport set at all. The focus is given to a giant passenger plane, the antithesis of easy storage fo
^Above comment is getting cut off?
@PurpleDave said:
" @jkb:
What coffee table book was available for points again? I don’t remember getting one, unless that was the s softcover Ferrari book.
And do you mean “hip”, not “hop”. If so, the problem is it would look the most awkward ever if they sold toys where the human characters all had one giant round cavity _right there_. Like parents-would-fly-to-Denmark-and-burn-the-country-down awkward.
Also, they made a few solid gold Kanohi, a few more sterling silver Krana, and one solid platinum Mask of Light. Those were all intended to be rare collectibles. Maybe the most recent winning bid for a gold Hau is a bit higher than intended, but even melted down these would all have appreciated vs their original declared value, and would continue to do so.
@poshhammer said:
"- What's the other 10%?"
I just have to say it would be hilarious if it was math.
@Belboz:
Assuming studs=points, that comes to a mere $115 and change. I think I had at least one in the ballpark, back in the 1900’s, and I wasn’t even a biochem or comp sci major. I think they had one or two that ran quite a bit higher, and the comp sci books were often updated so frequently that the bookstore wouldn’t even buy them back."
@PurpleDave I could have said bucks, but i thought I'd do a Lego game reference
@StyleCounselor @Belboz a 350$ law text book provides a LOT more lifelong usefulness for its money ;)
Basically Ill just finish that that the new passenger planes are the antithesis to easy storage for kids, and despite their huge size, cost and number of pieces dedicated to them, only hold 6 minifigures with at best a 2x3 container provided for luggage.
Have contemporary sets gotten more detailed? A little, but not in the revolutionary way that would make them better.
Clearly the 1994 set is better, and that has nothing to do with 'nostalgia bias.'
I'd also refer to spooky themes, which I actually have very little interest in.
Consider Monster Fighters (released when I was young) VS Hidden Side (released when I was an adult).
@poshhammer would say I'd be completely biased towards MF. Out of the two, I do prefer it, but that's because I think the characters are more interesting and better thought out, I love the vintage style vehicles, and prefer the more traditional approach to spooky creatures.
But here's the neat part: While I bought no MF sets, I did buy three HS sets. This is because while I prefer the MF idea, that didn't stop me from greatly respecting the work the designers of HS did with those sets, particularly their being more sophisticated than kids-theme sets normally are.
Consider too that if HS had been released first when I was young, and MF more recently, my opinions of both would remain the same.
So where does 'nostalgia-bias' fit in here??
@Zander Are you on the Brickset Discord?
@TheOtherMike said:
" @AllenSmith said:
"If there's ever a wave of Jack Stone homages, we'll write those off as blinkered kids."
I think you mean, "If there's ever a wave of Jack Stone homages, we riot.""
Isn't that how they ended Spaceballs?
@jkb:
"15.000 studs"
Okay, between NA/EU differences in how decimals are used, and studs vs bucks vs points, I'm not even really sure how much you're saying this coffee table book cost. Or, again, which book we're even talking about.
@PurpleDave said:
" @TheOtherMike said:
" @AllenSmith said:
"If there's ever a wave of Jack Stone homages, we'll write those off as blinkered kids."
I think you mean, "If there's ever a wave of Jack Stone homages, we riot.""
Isn't that how they ended Spaceballs?
@jkb:
"15.000 studs"
Okay, between NA/EU differences in how decimals are used, and studs vs bucks vs points, I'm not even really sure how much you're saying this coffee table book cost. Or, again, which book we're even talking about."
the 150$ SW-CTW. In Lego games, a stud is the mallest (and only) currency unit so I figured 1 stud = 1 cent, so 15 000 studs = 150$/€
@jkb:
Ah, okay. Well, ironically, I wasn't terribly far off with my $115 guess. Regardless, there's also 5007418, with the frenzy to buy the slipcover version possibly contributing to the decision to release this new SW book.
For me, much of my ‘nostalgia’ was for past sets I did not have the opportunity to acquire during my youth since they were already before my time. Aside from a few scattered instances (I vividly recall seeing 6981 in a toystore), I don’t remember paying much attention to LEGO during my childhood until 1995-96 (I specifically remember the Aquazone, Exploriens, and Dark Forest sets making big impressions on me), after which I became a LEGO fan. During the mid-late 90s, however, I got access to dial-up internet and was able to view catalogs and sets from past years. Even then, I couldn’t help but feel that I had just missed a golden age of 80s-early 90s sets, especially when comparing similar sets roughly equivalent to those currently available in the mid-late 90s. Of course, since my only view of many discontinued sets was via low-resolution catalog scans, I had to use my imagination to flesh out some of these sets and sometimes imagined sets to be far different than they actually were! The ubiquity of the plain smiley minifig head before the early 90s also helped to cast an almost wholesome and pure light on those past sets, especially since this minfig head was almost completely replaced with many rather ugly (in my opinion) face designs by the mid-90s. The ending of grand immersive dioramas in catalogs (I think by mid-late 90s?) certainly also reinforced my (childhood) feeling that LEGO’s best years were already behind it by the late 90s.
@brickchap @zander It's not a "gotcha" that I can't produce the thousands of documents and years of research from a company I don't work for, in a department I was never in, and would break so many NDAs.
Yes, there are hundreds of people dedicated to accumulating this research, trend forecasting and focus testing with many, MANY children to come to these conclusions. With your sample sizes of one for Monster Fighters/Classic Castle/etc, yes, you might legitimately like these things unbiased by nostalgia, but the orders of magnitude needed to be sold for a product to be a success dwarfs this handful of dedicated fans. They don't need to take that risk to stay successful so they won't.
Im not claiming anyone who likes classic castle is only blinded by nostalgia. Obviously there are medieval enthusiasts and people with an interest in LEGO history. But SKUs like the new Lion Knight's Castle are absolutely designed to poke at people who are nostalgic to get them to buy it and that is how they justify the SKU releasing.
Castle might come back one day, but only when the winds change and the evidence that kids will buy it reveals itself.
"the peak LEGO era was 1997-2004. This was the era when there was so much innovation happening" Really, it started in 1989 with pirates, minifigs were more detailed (prints, peg leg, hook, hat prints,...), and look at sets like 6276, 6285, 6273,...
@gsom7 said:
""the peak LEGO era was 1997-2004. This was the era when there was so much innovation happening" Really, it started in 1989 with pirates, minifigs were more detailed (prints, peg leg, hook, hat prints,...), and look at sets like 6276, 6285, 6273,... "
Nah.
Dumb question, but what’s an SKU?
Standard kid unit?
Some King’s Uglygreybuilding?
Inquiring minds want to know….
Thanks for the interesting article BTW
@poshhammer said:
" @brickchap @zander It's not a "gotcha" that I can't produce the thousands of documents and years of research from a company I don't work for, in a department I was never in, and would break so many NDAs.
Yes, there are hundreds of people dedicated to accumulating this research, trend forecasting and focus testing with many, MANY children to come to these conclusions. With your sample sizes of one for Monster Fighters/Classic Castle/etc, yes, you might legitimately like these things unbiased by nostalgia, but the orders of magnitude needed to be sold for a product to be a success dwarfs this handful of dedicated fans. They don't need to take that risk to stay successful so they won't.
Im not claiming anyone who likes classic castle is only blinded by nostalgia. Obviously there are medieval enthusiasts and people with an interest in LEGO history. But SKUs like the new Lion Knight's Castle are absolutely designed to poke at people who are nostalgic to get them to buy it and that is how they justify the SKU releasing.
Castle might come back one day, but only when the winds change and the evidence that kids will buy it reveals itself.
"
@poshhammer - Thank you again for the continued engagement. I think you're finding your groove here and I'm excited for the next, hopefully more AFOL-Volatile article. ;o)
@Brickchap said:
" @Zander Are you on the Brickset Discord? "
No but you can DM me here on Brickset.
@Flyingfish2023 said:
"Dumb question, but what’s an SKU?
Standard kid unit?
Some King’s Uglygreybuilding?
Inquiring minds want to know…."
Stock Keeping Unit. Basically, an identifier code for an inventory or retail product.
@Flyingfish2023 said:
"Dumb question, but what’s an SKU?
Standard kid unit?
Some King’s Uglygreybuilding?
Inquiring minds want to know….
Thanks for the interesting article BTW"
Sorry I got too "inside baseball". Yeah as zander said, stock keeping unit. In product design and manufacture its used to differentiate individual products. So say you have 5 SKUs, that means you sell 5 different things, rather than you have 5 in stock of a single thing. The 5-digit number on the front of a LEGO box is the SKU number.
I should do an article which is just q&a from the chat for things like this :)
A big part of the draw to older sets for me is how they were packaged compared to now. The effort put into the presentation was just outstanding, and oozed of quality and attention to detail. That design quality reappeared to some extent with the early CUUSOO/IDEAS sets with the premium box designs, but sadly has disappeared again.
Thank you both @poshhammer and @Zander for your reply
LEGO doesn't have a golden age. Many periods have had good sets and themes at the same time as not so good themes. The pre-minifig 'vintage' age was pretty decent, that was back when LEGO was just a toy that could be played with alongside other toys before it became a system that tried to exclude other toys by being everything.
@poshhammer said:
" @ThatBionicleGuy said:
"I'm in much the same 'nostalgia window' as you are"
How's your back doing these days? :')
@lordofthedreams9 The elements will be different from an engineering standpoint but not in utility. If you look REALLY closely they will have slightly differrent geometry. This was an absolute pain internally when designing too when we would be in a transitionary period..."
Rebrickable seems to look very closely and in most cases they do not note any differences. And many of these pieces are added to Pick-a-Brick online at the same time, or one runs for 1-2 years during many-year run of its duplicate...
For example 6179184 seems to be in use since 2016, but 6388483 was used only in one 2021 set and now is scheduled for retirement at the end of June, so it does not seem that there was a transition period between the two.