Just call them flowers. Or plants. Or both.

I don't understand the underlying mechanics (but I believe it's more complicated than simply having tags for themes and sub-themes), but I think the problem is that if you move everything to Botanicals (where it might make more sense), then people going to Icons will no longer see those previously Icons-branded Botanical sets?

Seems to me that if those are your only two options, leaving them out of Icons makes more sense than leaving them out of the new top-level Botanicals. And as suggested, maybe add a note to say formerly-Icons.

@ra226 said:
"I don't understand the underlying mechanics (but I believe it's more complicated than simply having tags for themes and sub-themes)"

Pardon me if you already know this, but if you visit a set's page, on the right side of the page is a column titled "Details" and under that is information about the set including number, name, category, pieces, etc. There is also a section titled "Tags" where clicking the "View Tags" text shows several tags used for that particular set. Some examples are dog, truck, magnet, or office. If you click on any of those, it will bring up a page with all the sets tagged with "dog" or whatever you chose.

Tags are completely independent of themes and sub-themes, as far as I'm aware. That's why I mentioned the Winter Village sets sharing the tag "Winter Village" but being under three different themes.

Couldn't the original sets under "Icons" and the new sets under "Botanicals" all be tagged with the common "Botanical Collection" tag? That seems to be similar to what The LEGO Group is doing. The "Botanicals" branding is on the new boxes, but on LEGO.com the "Botanical Collection" logo is displayed above the pricing.

Or move the older sets under the new theme like many others are suggesting. It's not the first time products have double-dipped with Icons and their own theme. Rivendell and Barad-dûr are officially Icons sets but we all know they belong to the Lord of the Rings theme.

I would categorise all under Botanicals.
It’s been actually much more confusing that they lumped so much subtheme under ‘Icons’ that it actually meant less.

(‘Creator Expert’ was perfect for that collection and while a name shouldn’t change anything, I question did the expansive Icons label dilute the perceived quality out to a large range of releases?)

Yeah, top-to-toe rationalisation into Botanical Collection seems like the way to go. LEGO has a bit of housework to do in several other arenas, as well...seasonal stuff, mostly. Never understood plants in Icons.

The lego website lists them under both Botanicals and Icons themes, as they do the same for the Lord Of The Rings Sets which I feel is also the best option as it allows for easier searching.

Keep them all together under the new Botanical theme!

I search for them here using "Botanical", so I will just be happy as long as they're not split between two pages.

Many older 'Castle' sets are actually listed under the theme 'System.' I believe this situation is similar: when the Castle theme eventually became its own distinct category, those sets were moved accordingly. The same approach could work well for the Botanical sets, placing them all under a unified 'Botanicals' theme.

Maybe a consistent tag would be best and leave the sets where they are? That way the tag can be applied to any “botanical” sets in other themes like Creator or Disney.

I do agree it would be easier if they were all grouped together. Whichever way you go, they can always be reclassified again later if it doesn’t work out.

Just make them all ‘botanical’

I don’t like all the sub-categories at all. Sometimes when searching for a set it feels like an impossible mission to find something. Even when you search for tags, because the tags are inconsistent and feel pretty random at times.

When I go to the search bar and search "Botanical", not only do I see Botanical Collection (Subtheme of Icons) and Botanicals (Theme)... but I also see subtheme of Promotional and subtheme of Creator. Are you going to reclassify the Promo and Creator ones, too?

The Theme/Subtheme model seems to be breaking down. Obviously it's a big ask, but a more Tag-based ecosystem might make more sense. But assuming that's in the far future, I think the compromises you've made (the subcategories for "convenient grouping" you mentioned earlier) make sense. Ideally, the end results of your system will be: the top search result for "Botanical" is all Botanical sets; and filtering my collection (whatever that looks like) by "Botanical" will yield all the Botanical sets I own. If you can't get there, then moving them all to the same theme I think is the next best thing for practical results even if it's not technically correct. But certainly have a note or a tag or whatever to satisfy those who want that history preserved.

@CapnRex101 said:
" @MrClassic said:
"Looking at the box art of the Botanical Collection, there's actually no Icons branding during the first two years, so it seems they're already incorrectly categorised..."

Icons branding was not used on any packaging until the start of 2023, so the Icons range in the database was originally based on the LEGO.com categories and simply the nature of the set. Anything that would previously have been considered Creator Expert was categorised as Icons, for example."

So really, it’s a correction not a change as the only basis for the previous categorisation was the theme grouping on the Lego website, which also grouped them as Botanical under interests.

Would be nice to have an easy way to collect things that go together, but aren't in the same theme structure.

Sets | Ideas | Licensed | 21331 Sonic the Hedgehog - Green Hill Zone
Sets | Sonic the Hedgehog | etc..

Sets | Ideas | Licensed | 21348 Dungeons & Dragons: Red Dragon's Tale
Sets | Collectable Minifigures | Dungeons & Dragons Series | 71047-6 Aarakocra Ranger

Maybe a new category that allows for a single "tag".

Theme: Ideas
Subtheme: Licensed
Collection: Dungeon's & Dragons

Might be a better term to use than collection as that's already used in other ways. Can't think of a good alternative right now though.

Edit: Maybe "Association" instead of collection. Sets associated with Dungeons & Dragons or Pirates or Video Games.

I assume the system doesn't allow for them be listed in 2 categories at the same time?

Brickset should do exactly as you had proposed as a solution. That would be to move the Botanical collection (from Icons) to new theme of Botanicals. Yes, also add a note to state they were originally part of the Icons theme or add tag of “Icons”.

Huw, hang on a second. I only have two from this theme. I have Bonsai Tree and Bouquet of Roses. The first one isn’t marked Icons whilst the second one is. I’ll have to check in a moment how you have tagged the Bonsai Tree. Is it still Icons?? Hmmm.

@ra226 sets are tagged though, as well as classified? Or do you just want more tags?

As for the botanicals, it doesn’t seem to serve much purpose if we orphan old sets just for the sake of accuracy

@MartyMcFly said:
"On the Lego shop website, the old botanicals are listed under the new Botanical collection theme."

I was going to say: "what is Lego doing? Match that, with notes or tags as necessary."

keep the icons/botanical where they are but have a link to new botanical . vice versa for new one have a link to older sets icons... ect. also a foot note at top both saying 2025 new botonicl sets , old icons botanicles are "link-here"... same icons new sets "link-here"

@Huw said:
"Just to clarify, for historical reasons (remember, the database was originally designed in the 1990s), sets have exactly one theme and zero or one subtheme, which are important attributes for organising them. These are shown with a dark blue background.

Our themes tend to mirror LEGO's where possible and subthemes did so in the days when themes were neatly subcategorised (early Space, Castle etc.) but nowadays we make many of them up for convenient grouping.

Sets can also have an unlimited number of tags, shown with a light blue background, but they are partially hidden away when viewing listings because some sets have dozens of them. There is certainly no reason why all botanical sets can't be tagged 'botanical collection', though."

Based on this thought: can you set up a search term (or maybe you have and I just don't know?) for tags? So I could search "tag:botanicals" and it was bring up tags first, rather than sorting through any other places that term might exist? There are definitely times I want to see tags at the top, and if that was possible (and widely known), it might make it easier to classify them as they were released (for accuracy, which I do understand).

they probably left out icons because they small.
You also missed the new botanical book sets/ other new sets come with a book and are catagorized as a book. That might be because website info was on were for books.
--------------------------------
Book publisher AMEET (eu) has published their LEGO 2025 portfolio and there are some interesting LEGO Botanical Collection sets that you’ll be able to add to your collection soon. These little sets will come with a pocket-sized book showing details about the various flowers featured in the set.

Tiny Desert Garden – 54 pieces

Discover the fascinationg world of cacti and succulents with this LEGO Tiny Desert Garden. Aimed at new/casual LEGO Fans, this series features a pocket-sized book and exclusive Botanical Collection mini-model.

• LEGO Desert Garden model with tray container and 7 mini-plants – including snake plant, String of Pearls, barrel cactus, and a ladybug!
• Mini-book with elegant design and inspiring facts about each plant, as well as building instructions and ideas for how to customize the model
• These adorable “forever” Botanical builds can be displayed on a shelf, desk, or bookcase or given as gifts

______________________________________
Tiny Wildflower Bouquet – 95 pieces

specifications
box:131 x 111 x 56mm
book:100x 119mm. 32 pages soft cover
model: 95 lego elements
estimated launch 2025
---------------------------------------------------------
Delight at this bouquet of tiny LEGO wildflowers. Aimed at new/casual LEGO Fans, this series features a pocket-sized book and exclusive Botanical Collection mini-model.

• LEGO Tiny Wildflower Bouquet with mini-versions of the Corn Flower, Gerbera Daisy, Sunflower, Cow Parsley, Larkspur, Lavender, Welsh Poppy, and Lupin. Each flower is removable from the vase for up-close, singular enjoyment
• Mini-book with elegant design and inspiring facts about each plant, as well as building instructions and ideas for how to customize the model

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
was a lego botanical collection sticker book, no lego so i did not mention
-----------------
If anybody can get I am interested. wildflower and desert. U.s.a.

@ra226 said:
"When I go to the search bar and search "Botanical", not only do I see Botanical Collection (Subtheme of Icons) and Botanicals (Theme)... but I also see subtheme of Promotional and subtheme of Creator. Are you going to reclassify the Promo and Creator ones, too?

The Theme/Subtheme model seems to be breaking down. Obviously it's a big ask, but a more Tag-based ecosystem might make more sense. But assuming that's in the far future, I think the compromises you've made (the subcategories for "convenient grouping" you mentioned earlier) make sense. Ideally, the end results of your system will be: the top search result for "Botanical" is all Botanical sets; and filtering my collection (whatever that looks like) by "Botanical" will yield all the Botanical sets I own. If you can't get there, then moving them all to the same theme I think is the next best thing for practical results even if it's not technically correct. But certainly have a note or a tag or whatever to satisfy those who want that history preserved."

It wasn't that well working from the beginning.

TLG "introduced" a set categorization system in the late 1960's mainly based on age groups. This stayed there until the introduction of the minifig made "sub-themes" a desirable thing.

The 1978 "Legoland" set-group was thus split up into Town, Space, Castle. However Lego still tried to keep the age-based classification as much as possible.

The 1990s messed that concept up again. Many of the older themes were ultimately cancelled (Fabuland, Homemaker, Scala), whereas others underwent drastical design changes and rebranding (Trains, Service, Dacta). Lego then was focused on marketing their products on a three-level concept of themes:

1) Platform (Primo, Duplo, System, Scala, Znap, Technic, Mindstorms)
2) Themes (Town, Space, Castle, Aquazone, Paradisa, etc. (System)/Basic, Town, Toolo etc. (Duplo)/Tech Play, Tech Build, Competition, Slizers (Technic) and a few others)
3) Sub-Themes (Blacktron, Royal Knights, Police, Aquasharks...)

When the old classic themes were abandoned in favor of shorter lasting new ones, this system began to fail as well.

"Official" Theme categorization changes always (sometimes even individual sets were categorized completely different, depending on year). For long-lasting themes this will always be a problem. If the current "fan classification" stays as is, I would probably opt for ignoring the whole "Icons" branding altogether and keep the older sub-themes (Modulars, Cars, Landmarks, whatever) in it's own Theme (Creator Expert? Sculptures? Advanced Models?). TLG will probably drop the Icon brand in a few years anyway.

Thought might be helpful above if making new catagories

Theme, subtheme, is already a folly of categorization to me. It should simple be a field of "tags" with arbitrary number of them that can be applied/filtered for. Theme, subtheme is trying to give structure that doesn't exist to the data.

(Make them all just "Botanical")

I don't think that moving older sets from their original theme is a good idea. It would mean to provide an incorrect information.
Anyway search various bonatical sets among various theme is not appealing too.

Maybe the only satisfying solution is to create a new way to group sets that could be transversal among themes and subthemes. Maybe we can call this new way "groups".
Surely this will require more effort, and will have sense only if useful for other categories too.
For example the set 381 or other "Legoland" theme police sets are not listed when I search for "police" as a subtheme, but could be included in a "Police" group.

Icons to Botanicals, please.

It is interesting from a historical perspective to know that some sets were released under a different label previously, but I think it's best if BL represents LEGO from the perspective of the present--when everyone is actually browsing, running their searches, etc. Certainly preserve the original classification ... somehow.

That said, I would also humbly suggest that the best solution (though certainly the most work) would be to update the back end out of this quandary, for example by using tags rather than hierarchies.

@Netherrific said:
"I think they should just all be moved to Botanicals. The first year of Bionicle was a Technic subtheme, but since it split off from it after that, all Bionicle sets are in one theme. The same should apply here."

I like it under botanicals... but how would some people find the sets, thinking be under Icons iike box says...
Can you do both?

Ideally I'd suggest a sort of super tag, which is how Modular Buildings as a "subtheme" functions now. If not that, however, I'd do exactly as with the modulars, with a Botanical Collection subtheme that spans Icons and Botanicals. It's redundant, yes, and precludes the possibility of future Botanicals subthemes, but it's both historically accurate and functional, and it could incorporate promotional sets that have already been released, like 40588.

In terms of the historical accuracy of the database, I believe it's of paramount importance. One can easily go to Lego.com to see how they categorize sets in the present, but this doesn't accurately reflect how sets have been categorized in the past, as this switch demonstrates. Once lost that's difficult information to recover. It's messy, but reality is messy.

I think the option that consists in linking the new sets to the new theme 'Botanicals' with the subtheme 'Botanical collection', while keeping the older sets under the theme 'Icons', subtheme 'Botanical collection', makes sense from an organizational point of view, allowing sets from the different themes (Creator, Icons, Botanicals, Promotional) to be grouped and viewed together using this subtheme.

No option here is perfect, but the best I think is setting a common subtheme among them. Botanicals could have a subtheme called "Botanical collection" which could be used to tag both Botanicals and Icons.

Whatever is decided on for the theme, it would be good if they all have a universal 'flower' or 'plant' tag as well, and include the likes of 30408, 30404, 30417, 30634 Friends sets, so a search of one tag could catch them all.

@King_J said:
"I motion to change the older sets to the new Botanical theme along with the new ones. The longer we go the harder it is to change later on, and I don't see botanicals going away anytime soon.

Same reason I wish Bricklink had restructured and split Marvel and DC minifigures early on and nipped those problems in the bud."

For Botanicals, there's going to be a finite and unchanging number that were released under the Icons theme, and only the ones released under the Icons theme will continue to grow in number. For DC/Marvel, that's a problem that swells on both sides every year. At this point, there isn't even any Superheroes branding on either theme, so you have to wonder if the reason they're avoiding doing anything about it is because they feel they waited too long to pull the trigger.

@GoldenNinja3000:
And one of the things that makes this all so messy is that TLG is free to recategorize sets after they've retired, and capable of listing them under multiple themes simultaneously. Brickset and Bricklink try to go by the historical record of how things were originally marketed, and both have category trees that only allow sets to be tied to a single theme. Dimensions, for instance, created a huge mess because it pulled so many existing and future licenses together under a new theme. Gandalf and Gollum forced BL to create a non-existent theme to bring LotR and The Hobbit together under a single umbrella, only that didn't backfire on them the way treating "Superheroes" as a single theme did.

This is the first time I've realized they were classified under Icons to begin with.

Tag botanicals should be enough. Same goes to other "plants" sets.

@Andrusi said:
"This is the first time I've realized they were classified under Icons to begin with."

Same here. I don't think there's any reason to keep the sets under Icons in the database.

@Huw said:
"...assigning the new sets a subtheme 'Botanical collection' would not make sense."
Why not?
It's simple, and it's consistent with the way the modular buildings are kept together across themes. And who knows what may be added to the Botanicals theme in future? Just because for now all sets in the theme will be in one subtheme doesn't mean that will forever be the case.

Speaking of themes and subthemes, the short-lived "Legends" were never given either...

Categorise them all as Botanicals, at the end of the day its the first place anyone’s going to start looking!

@Huw said:
" @missedoutagain said:
"Today, the LEGO Group has announced LEGO Botanicals will become its own specific theme, titled LEGO Botanicals, accompanied by its own logo and new products to come – announcing four new LEGO Botanicals sets to arrive from early 2025.

LEGO® Botanicals Flower Arrangement (10345 -1,165 pieces/$109.99
LEGO® Botanicals Lucky Bamboo (10344) – 325 pieces/$29.99
LEGO® Botanicals Mini Orchid (10343) – 274 pieces/$29.99
LEGO® Botanicals Pretty Pink Flower Bouquet (10342) – 749 pieces/$59.99
"

Yesterday's news..."

I tried lol

@Huw said:
" @chefkaspa said:
"What would be done to the plants that have been issued as Creator:
40524
40460
40461
40467
40725
40747
This last one mirrors 40646 from Icons/Botanical Collection."

One could argue that they are honarary members of the botanical collection but not classified as such by LEGO because they have a younger age rating.

https://brickset.com/sets/subtheme-Botanical-Collection/theme-Creator

And these two too:

https://brickset.com/sets/subtheme-Botanical-Collection/theme-Promotional
"

Lego has released a book called the botanical almanac and have sets from every theme they have been released under in it. If they have considered them one theme in the book, then maybe they should be grouped together here as well but maybe a "creator" "icons" etc notation of some sort.

wow ty Huw adding 2 bbook ones

@Huw said:
"As I could have predicted, a concensus has not been reached!

"
@Huw 115 likes on comment from @DaLegoNerd1 so the people has spoken!
It's a bit confusing because theme is expected to be something bigger than subtheme and in this case it's opposite.

Is it possible to put it under both? Put a note on the older sets under Icons but also have them under the new Botanical collection title.

I have a bunch of "Expert Builder" sets. I owned those sets for years before I even heard the word "technic". But now, on Brickset, they are all listed under "Technic".

So if we follow the same approach this site has taken historically, we should also recategorize those particular "Icons" sets in question to the new botanical theme.

@Huw said:
"As I could have predicted, a concensus has not been reached!

For now, I will leave old sets as Icons and apply the subtheme Botanical Collection to the new sets.

All BC sets, whether Icons, Creator, Promotional, or Botanicals can be viewed together without losing any historical or 'official' categorisation.

https://brickset.com/sets/subtheme-Botanical-Collection

"

Thanks for your work on quickly remedying this (minor) issue. Its interesting to note that its your site and you're free to run it the way you wish...reaching out tot he community and asking for advice/collaboration is a nice touch.

I don't think I would have gone the route of allowing subthemes belonging to 1 or more themes. That move would have resulted in the creation of a junction table and a huge undertaking of the entire site.

@Huw said:
"Just to clarify, for historical reasons (remember, the database was originally designed in the 1990s), sets have exactly one theme and zero or one subtheme, which are important attributes for organising them. These are shown with a dark blue background.

Our themes tend to mirror LEGO's where possible and subthemes did so in the days when themes were neatly subcategorised (early Space, Castle etc.) but nowadays we make many of them up for convenient grouping.

Sets can also have an unlimited number of tags, shown with a light blue background, but they are partially hidden away when viewing listings because some sets have dozens of them. There is certainly no reason why all botanical sets can't be tagged 'botanical collection', though."

database designers are gonna hate me for this suggestion but I guess you could always add a nullable column "OldTheme" to the sets, and just use another FK to the theme table :')

@Huw said:
"As I could have predicted, a concensus has not been reached!

For now, I will leave old sets as Icons and apply the subtheme Botanical Collection to the new sets.

All BC sets, whether Icons, Creator, Promotional, or Botanicals can be viewed together without losing any historical or 'official' categorisation.

https://brickset.com/sets/subtheme-Botanical-Collection

"

I think that's best possible solution. Now it's as easy as browsing modular buildings or vehicles!

Thank you @Huw for your diligence and attention to detail. The top reason why Brickset is such an enjoyable tool.

Now how about dual-themed sets such as 43252 or 43237 ? Would be neat to see them also grouped? Or is that wishing too much?

I like how it is now. I don’t mind having the new theme Botanicals and sub theme Botanical Collection.

I'm all for migrating everything to botanicals - especially if Lego considers re-releasing older botanical sets at any point, they'd likely be rebranded as such as well.

It just makes it easier to find and browse the theme in the future, Icons isn't an especially useful theme since it's so broad.

Idea: Let them have 2 tags at the same time. One for icons/botanical collection, and other is botanicals. Or you guys can change icons/botanical collection-> icons/botanical collection(old) maybe thats the way to go

@Huw said:
"As I could have predicted, a concensus has not been reached!

For now, I will leave old sets as Icons and apply the subtheme Botanical Collection to the new sets.

All BC sets, whether Icons, Creator, Promotional, or Botanicals can be viewed together without losing any historical or 'official' categorisation.

https://brickset.com/sets/subtheme-Botanical-Collection

"

I think this is the right answer!

I don't know if Brickset existed at the time, but if it was, how was this handled when Bionicle became its own theme spinning off from Technic?

@AustinPowers said:
"I would never search for a tag called "Icons" because for one I hate the inflationary use of the term "icon" or "iconic" by LEGO even for completely mundane stuff. Secondly I think a category "Botanicals" perfectly describes all these flower / plant based sets. Hence that's how I would search for them. "

I couldn’t agree more: we each deem what is ‘iconic’ or an ‘icon’ past the point of release. It’s presumptive of TLG to say the least.
It’s an expanding theme of reducing distinction.

Since there are going to be more and more new Botanical sets in the years to come, move the older sets to the new Botanical theme. Maybe add an Icons tag or sub-theme to the existing sets.

Move them all to the new botanicals theme

I would all do this with all the old creator expert sets to icons also. LEGO rebranded that line. I think it’s fine to rename the theme in the database as well. If LEGO rereleased an old Creator Expert sets it would be branded and released as Icons, not Creator Expert

The database should favor ease of use and consumer convenience over rigid adherence to abandoned branding

A quick tally of those who have stated a clear preference above shows about 80% in favor of moving all the previously sets to the new botanicals theme

That sure seems like a consensus to me …

Move all to the new botanicals theme.

If possible add a new database field for the "original" theme location. Allow for an option to include, combine, or exclude the reference.

Just leave them in Icons and also add them all in new Botanicals filter.
Things can belong to two or more sections, you know? :)

Just leave the themes separated as they were. Nobody really collects all these stupid flowers anyway. Why should Brickset always try to fix the mess that TLG makes with their inconsistent collection namings? The midi scale ships for instance don't suddenly all become "Starship Collection" just because the latest sets are named that way.
Just tag these sets as "plants" or "decoration" and all is good. Nobody cares if they appear under Creator, Seasonal, Icons, Friends or Botanicals. It's all the same junk.

Water it and keep it on a sunny window sill.

Things were so much simpler when we had "Duplo", "Basic", "Legoland Town", "Legoland Castle", "Legoland Space", "Legoland Trains", and "Technic"...and that was it.

Perhaps a poll would have been in order here?

For data integrity purposes, I vote keeping them classified like they are now, under the themes they were originally released. Brickset has been first and foremost a database, and should accurately reflect the data.

From a usability standpoint, a different mechanism should be employed to group these botanical sets across their separate themes. I think the tags are already designed to do that, just like how Sonic the Hedgehog sets were part of Dimensions, then Ideas, and BrickHeadz, and now its own theme.

Maybe the Series-level tag gets raised from the collapsed set of tags up to the top-level tags where the theme/subtheme and year are listed on the set description

In my view, sets should be attached to the themes that they were originally published in, even if that means that there is a certain redundancy, thematic overlap, or other perceived ambiguity.

Otherwise it seems to me that you will get into a mire of discussions about interpretations, what sets should be where, etc. For example, 10497 Galaxy explorer, 70841 Benny's Space Squad or 40715 Alien Pack could all be argued to be classic space sets but are in entirely different themes.

@R0Sch said:
"Just leave the themes separated as they were. Nobody really collects all these stupid flowers anyway. Why should Brickset always try to fix the mess that TLG makes with their inconsistent collection namings? The midi scale ships for instance don't suddenly all become "Starship Collection" just because the latest sets are named that way.
Just tag these sets as "plants" or "decoration" and all is good. Nobody cares if they appear under Creator, Seasonal, Icons, Friends or Botanicals. It's all the same junk."

Flowers are one most popular sets. If there was a dislike button, I bet you would have thousands of down votes. Yes people do collect all these sets.
If you haven't heard latest news

LEGO announced that the LEGO Botanical Collection will be rebranded next year to just LEGO Botanicals. The theme has been through some changes since its start back in 2020 when it was part of the LEGO Icons theme before becoming the Botanical Collection subtheme. It’s a subtle change but good to see that the sets will get its own theme since they’re pretty popular.

Move them to Botanicals. No one will mind that they’re not under icons. No one complains that Classic Space is under Space and not the a ‘Legoland’ theme