Interview with Milan Madge, designer of 10305 Lion Knights' Castle
Posted by CapnRex101,
After discussing the magnificent 10497 Galaxy Explorer with Mike Psiaki, our attention moved to 10305 Lion Knights' Castle and its designer, Milan Madge, while visiting Billund last month.
This design was developed with influence from Mike, so both designers contribute to our short interview.
This model represents quite a dramatic departure from its primary inspiration, 6080 King's Castle. Was consideration given to developing something more faithful to the original?
Milan: Yes, we considered a few different directions. We started by examining different kinds of castle within the range, so were building updated versions of 6080 King's Castle and 6086 Black Knight's Castle, among others, much like 10497 Galaxy Explorer. However, we found ourselves wanting to acknowledge the whole Castle universe, rather than focusing on one specific model. When discussing our favourite LEGO castles, we were finding that one would have the best gate, while another included the best drawbridge or hidden passage.
It quickly became apparent we would need to combine our favourite features from numerous castles into a single ultimate design, which could include just about everything we wanted and everything we know the fans would love to see.
Mike: When running the vote for the 90th anniversary, we received understandable criticism for splitting Castle into multiple subthemes. That did create some problems with the voting, but also helped us understand the breadth of fans for different Castle ranges. Every subtheme is unique and splitting the range for the poll revealed the degree of interest in Fright Knights, Lion Knights, Black Falcons, Forestmen and the others, relative to one another.
In hindsight, maybe we could have found that information in a more clever way, but the results were extremely helpful because they showed that Lion Knights and Forestmen were easily the most popular subthemes, with the greatest nostalgic association. Those two therefore influenced the design above all others and we knew the castle would be occupied by the Lion Knights, with the Forestmen nearby. At one point, we did consider building a huge Forestmen hideout, but having a set celebrating the Castle theme without a proper castle would have been tricky!
Another interesting aspect of this model is its realism, relative to previous LEGO castles. Was that something you prioritised during development?
Milan: Well, I spent plenty of time visiting castles while growing up and was definitely inspired by the different kinds of drawbridge and defensive features. The drawbridge was actually something we decided on fairly early because this counterweight design was common in reality, but we have somehow never recreated it for a LEGO castle. We thought it would be impossible to integrate because it requires such height, but it became achievable after raising the entire structure on the landscape.
The historical aspect is something that attracted me to LEGO Castle as a child and I grew up with Kingdoms, which featured sets that were already fairly realistic. This model is about the classic Castle range and what fans voted for, rather than my personal history, but there might have been some instinctive influence from my childhood Kingdoms sets which drove us towards greater realism.
Mike: We actually explored presenting even more defensive features. We had aspirations to include a traditional double portcullis, where attackers could be trapped between the gates, but that would occupy a vast amount of space. Also, the logistics of playing inside an internal room were extremely difficult, so we decided that including something like that would really be going too far.
Would analysing the strategic capabilities of the castle be excessive?
Mike: Definitely not! We were debating whether an additional curtain wall would be necessary for increased realism, or whether particular sections of the castle would be vulnerable to attack. That actually encouraged us to develop a new 1x4x3 arch brick, complementing the existing 1x5x4 arch. We love the recessed archway from 6090 Royal Knight's Castle and wanted to recreate that on this model, giving an authentic depth to the gatehouse.
Producing that shape without spoiling the narrow proportions was quite difficult though, so we experimented with 1x6 arches, but ultimately decided a new arch was needed. Afterwards, we found ourselves using it throughout the model, so quickly convinced ourselves it was the correct decision.
Milan: We did have an opportunity to include a new knight's helmet or something similar for a minifigure, but developing a more versatile building element was preferable. We always like to expand the basic brick families wherever we can.
Andres from Zusammengebaut also discussed 10305 Lion Knights' Castle with the designers, covering some different topics. The castle section of the video begins at 5:51.
We hope to discuss both models in greater depth with their designers in the future, as there are doubtless many more secrets to uncover!
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54 comments on this article
Can’t wait to get the set !
Excited for this set but oh how I wish to see that massive Forestmen set they considered!
I’ll have to just be happy with my BL Designer program Castle in the Forest.
As a side note, fans were disappointed the final Castle in the Forest model had the dark azure water, but now it matches the Lion Knights’ Castle perfectly! Can’t wait to see them together in August.
I' m so excited about this set!
My wallet feels differently though.
This looks like a proper Castle set, yet I'm really concerned about the price tag being $400. I hope Lego thinks about AFOLs who still wants to relive the glory days but for a reasonable budget. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for granduer sets, but in early days Lego did release sets for varying budgets. For example in the year 6074 released, there were also 6067 and 6041. Or 6059 released same year as 6081. I can give you more examples but I think my point is clear.
Same goes for 10497.
Whilst the castle looks awesome and cant wait to see it alongside the Blacksmith and new Forestmen GWP........really its not harking back to old days except in the minifigs. If it didnt have those i wouldnt even consider the set.
Lego just allow us to buy updated versions of the classic figures and i will give you so much money my wife may divorce me.
I love the look of the set, but I still wonder why they didn’t include a throne room for the Queen?
It's a great set, but I'm starting to get a bit bored of 80s nostalgia.
@Big_Jarv
It's not supposed to be a Castle set from the old days. It's a homage, for grown-up kids. And it's a beautiful model on its own right - always wanted a proper fortress. I would be keen for Lego to release a larger D2C medieval set every year (just like they do with Fairgrounds) so that I can slowly build a medieval environment. This and the Blacksmith are a good start already.
@MisterBrickster said:
"It's a great set, but I'm starting to get a bit bored of 80s nostalgia. "
Enjoy it while it lasts if you are a forty something. I’m pretty sure we are are going to move to the 90s nostalgia soon :)
"We did have an opportunity to include a new knight's helmet or something similar for a minifigure, but developing a more versatile building element was preferable."
Or a goat :P
Afols justifying price tag with minifigs count in 3... 2... 1...
He did a great job indeed. A modern set capturing the nostalgia of the 80s. As a kid I found the 6080 under our Christmas tree and now I also have to buy this to finally close the circle :)
And the Galaxy Explorer was my first Lego set ever, I know its a different topic, but in my case Lego really hit the nail here with both anniversary releases :)
@Lego_lord said:
"This looks like a proper Castle set, yet I'm really concerned about the price tag being $400. I hope Lego thinks about AFOLs who still wants to relive the glory days but for a reasonable budget. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for granduer sets, but in early days Lego did release sets for varying budgets. For example in the year 6074 released, there were also 6067 and 6041. Or 6059 released same year as 6081. I can give you more examples but I think my point is clear.
Same goes for 10497."
I saw in another forum that if you deflate the $400US to 1990, it's $180. So while it most definitely is a lot, we need to compare it more accurately. Guarded Inn would go for $52 in 2022 dollars vs $19.75 in 1986.
In 1979, when 497 came out, it was $32. That's $128 in 2022 dollars.
6086 from 1992 would cost $180 in 2022, but 10305 has 8 more minifigs and 7x the number of parts.
He “grew up with” Kingdoms, which came out only 12 years ago?! My god, he’s still a kid!! What have I been doing with my own stupid life, to be so much older than he is and still not a LEGO designer…
Anyway, it’s a lovely set, with lots to offer. I’ve always been fond of Castle themes, but I always have had other LEGO priorities - Star Wars, Space, Indiana Jones, LEGO Dimensions, whatever - so while I’ve often had lots of smaller sets and a few midrange ones from the Castle themes, especially when I’ve found them on clearance, I’ve never really been able to buy any of the big actual Castles. I do actually apparently have a whole secondhand 6080 that a dying friend gave me, but I haven’t built it yet, and I never got any of the $90+ Castles from things like Knights Kingdoms II, Fantasy Castle, Kingdoms, etc. The largest non-Middle Earth Castle-type set I’ve bought is 7189 Mill Village Raid (so hey, at least I have those darn goats!).
This one set would be a massive all-at-once shot in the arm to my Castle collection, and do so with a set that encompasses a variety of subthemes and factions but especially ones represented in the ‘80s collection of my late friend who left me 6080 and a few other sets of that era, and I think it would do really well for me. My means are limited enough that I have very few sets of this size and price, but I do have a few, and I think I’ll do my darndest to get this one.
Look at all those Space Parts!
It was really thoughtful of LEGO to give us so many in one year!
@Lego_lord said:
"This looks like a proper Castle set, yet I'm really concerned about the price tag being $400. I hope Lego thinks about AFOLs who still wants to relive the glory days but for a reasonable budget. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for granduer sets, but in early days Lego did release sets for varying budgets. For example in the year 6074 released, there were also 6067 and 6041. Or 6059 released same year as 6081. I can give you more examples but I think my point is clear.
Same goes for 10497."
I agree that there should be a range of sets at different price points including very affordable ones.
One option in the mid-price point band (by LEGO's standards) is 31120 3-in-1 Medieval Castle. It may not scratch every itch as sold but with a few modifications can be turned into a pretty neat addition to the Castle theme. Some suggested changes are discussed in my article here: https://brickset.com/article/59997/makeover-31120-medieval-castle
@Lego_lord said:
"This looks like a proper Castle set, yet I'm really concerned about the price tag being $400. I hope Lego thinks about AFOLs who still wants to relive the glory days but for a reasonable budget. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for granduer sets, but in early days Lego did release sets for varying budgets. For example in the year 6074 released, there were also 6067 and 6041 . Or 6059 released same year as 6081 . I can give you more examples but I think my point is clear.
Same goes for 10497 ."
For budget you have option to buy 3in1 creator castle. The castle theme is not around anymore and its better to get expensive castle than the cheaper. Especially with so many details and fully closable castle which looks good from any angle :) . There is not any better castle released compared to this one. It worth every penny even with higher price tag.
I wonder what that surprise in the video is when you split the castle in half...
^ There is a cave under castle for the forest men to camp out in.
https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/189957-10305-lion-knights-castle-90th-anniversary-set/&do=findComment&comment=3537146
@Blondie_Wan said:
"He “grew up with” Kingdoms, which came out only 12 years ago?! My god, he’s still a kid!! What have I been doing with my own stupid life, to be so much older than he is and still not a LEGO designer…"
Yeah, as someone who grew up with Classic Space and whose younger brother had the yellow castle, this made me feel REALLY old!
One can argue, but ... best LEGO-set ever?
Neat to hear that the entrance archway is based off 6090; I have that set from a lot given to me by some friends from church when I was younger. It's the only big Lego castle I own, so it's nice to see it acknowledged :D
The set is indeed truly impressive, but I don't imagine I'll ever get it; spending £100 on Lego is out of my range, never mind multiple hundreds. Still, it's very cool to see it, and I hope those who do buy it enjoy it ^^
((On a different note, I just noticed that the comment box notifies you when your session has timed out now! Super useful feature, thanks @huw! :D))
@PDelahanty said:
" @Blondie_Wan said:
"He “grew up with” Kingdoms, which came out only 12 years ago?! My god, he’s still a kid!! What have I been doing with my own stupid life, to be so much older than he is and still not a LEGO designer…"
Yeah, as someone who grew up with Classic Space and whose younger brother had the yellow castle, this made me feel REALLY old!
"
Amen to that! Gahhhh, darn passage of time…
I should have added to / corrected my earlier post: I *do* have some $100+ -ish Castle-type sets, including both 10193 Medieval Market Village and 21325 Medieval Blacksmith, as well as the aforementioned Mill Village Raid; I’ve just never bought a large actual castle. This new creation might go well with my castle-y civilian sets, I think, even before I mod any of them.
Debating whether to get this set and turn it into a tourist attraction for my City layout. It's undoubtedly pricey (Maybe a bit too big for the space I have, come to that) - at the best part of £350 it might have to come with a really nice GWP to convince me
@Meppers said:
"I wonder what that surprise in the video is when you split the castle in half..."
Andres has answered that question in the comment section for the castle article on his blog zusammengebaut.com.
He wrote that the option to split up the castle into two separate castles was enough of a surprise for him already.
@Alrighty:
That’s probably where the GWP came from.
@Lego_lord
Multiple sets at different prices is typical of a play theme for children. This isn't targeted at children, although some lucky children will of course get to play with it if they have AFOLs in their family. Small sets don't make sense for an adult orientated product when they could use the same product slot for a larger and more lucrative set.
Would a new castle play theme be great? I think it would but I'm guessing that making more Harry Potter sets and so on is likely to make more money than an unlicensed castle play theme so that's what they're doing.
The sets from Ideas, Creator 3 in 1, 90th Anniversary and Bricklink Designer Program will have to do. That's more than many old themes have had in the last few years.
The designer video was interesting, and that super mario comment!
@Paperdaisy said:
" @Lego_lord
Multiple sets at different prices is typical of a play theme for children. This isn't targeted at children, although some lucky children will of course get to play with it if they have AFOLs in their family. Small sets don't make sense for an adult orientated product when they could use the same product slot for a larger and more lucrative set.
Would a new castle play theme be great? I think it would but I'm guessing that making more Harry Potter sets and so on is likely to make more money than an unlicensed castle play theme so that's what they're doing."
Admittedly, I don’t have access to the market research that LEGO does. But judging by the number of Castle/fantasy minifigures in the CMF series over the years, there is demand for the theme among kids (CMFs being aimed at kids despite what some AFOLs think).
I suspect the reason that LEGO hasn’t put out a Castle line in a long time with sets at different price points is that it has found that Castle itches the same scratch as either HP or Ninjago and is fearful of cannibalising its own sales. I can’t prove it of course; that’s just conjecture on my part.
Great interview! You can tell they are passionate about these projects. Appreciate the insights into the design process and all the ideas they went through to finally come to this beautiful set! If only we can see prototypes, alternate builds as well. This is definitely the best castle set ever that Lego have released. Love the build and all the great parts and minifigs. Definitely a day 1 purchase and then wait for good sales to pickup another.
If only they do a full wave of castle theme again to have cheaper sets that can add to this scene with battering ram, catapults and seige towers. And best of all, a castle battle packs for parts and army building, those would sell like hotcakes!
@Zander:
Presence of minifigs in the CMF theme really only indicates that the designers want them. They are blind-packed, after all, so the majority of customers have no idea what they’re buying. With S1 and S2, they did have character-specific barcodes they could scan at LEGO Stores during checkout to track which minifigs were most popular. There were three problems with this idea:
1. They were supposed to be blind purchases, so nobody should know what they’re buying except by series, so all they would be able to determine was that people were buying them randomly…if things went as planned.
2. Supply was low enough that _EVERYTHING_ was selling as fast as they could stock them.
3. The secondary barcodes didn’t go unnoticed, and very quickly people were circulating lists of barcodes allowing people to compare them against a list, or apps that you could use to just scan them with a smartphone, making it _very_ easy for anyone to circumvent the blind bag format.
@tm76:
It wasn’t an official designer video, so that may yet be coming. It was an interview of the designers that was recorded on video by someone from another website. Interesting as it was, because he was asking targeted questions, the information presented may be different than what a designer video would have included, though they did seem to steer things back towards stuff they wanted to talk about. The split function is one aspect that probably wouldn’t have been presented the same way in a designer video, since there would be nobody to show it to besides the camera.
I enjoyed the interview format of this video, the ones by LEGO are over-produced and marketingy.
@Nytmare:
Well, the other official ones _are_ professionally produced marketing tools, so…
Too bad there's no King Leo, rather than include both king and a queen, I feel LEGO would rather double down on diversity and make a point to include only a female monarch.
I guess I have to scale back my summer vacation to buy this and the Sanctum Santcorum. ;-)
@Greshi said:
" @Meppers said:
"I wonder what that surprise in the video is when you split the castle in half..."
Andres has answered that question in the comment section for the castle article on his blog zusammengebaut.com.
He wrote that the option to split up the castle into two separate castles was enough of a surprise for him already."
You sure that is not something he say to avoid answering the question and spoil the surprise?
@Roebuck said:
" @Greshi said:
" @Meppers said:
"I wonder what that surprise in the video is when you split the castle in half..."
Andres has answered that question in the comment section for the castle article on his blog zusammengebaut.com.
He wrote that the option to split up the castle into two separate castles was enough of a surprise for him already."
You sure that is not something he say to avoid answering the question and spoil the surprise?"
Pretty sure, but not a hundred percent. We'll see when our copies arrive ;-) (or maybe if a reviewer tells us)...
@NissanZ32 said:
"Too bad there's no King Leo, rather than include both king and a queen, I feel LEGO would rather double down on diversity and make a point to include only a female monarch."
I’m hoping there will be a surprise gwp throne with a king!
@Paperdaisy said:
" @Lego_lord
Multiple sets at different prices is typical of a play theme for children. This isn't targeted at children, although some lucky children will of course get to play with it if they have AFOLs in their family."
Warped logic to me.
So there are but two client groups for Lego?
Poor impecunious kids, happy with a polybag within their reach on the one side, and moneyed Buffetts having wads of cash to spare on the other hand.
Lego is starting to forget the middle ground.
They sure did struck gold with openly adhering to the AFOL-public, but mainly focusing on one part of that public results in greedy greebling.
The 90th anniversary celebrations would have made for a perfect occasion but it is difficult to turn back once a path has been chosen.
They still have their clear moments as 10497 shows but more and more other decisions are clear evidence of the road not taken.
@PurpleDave said:
" @Zander:
Presence of minifigs in the CMF theme really only indicates that the designers want them. They are blind-packed, after all, so the majority of customers have no idea what they’re buying. With S1 and S2, they did have character-specific barcodes they could scan at LEGO Stores during checkout to track which minifigs were most popular. There were three problems with this idea:
1. They were supposed to be blind purchases, so nobody should know what they’re buying except by series, so all they would be able to determine was that people were buying them randomly…if things went as planned.
2. Supply was low enough that _EVERYTHING_ was selling as fast as they could stock them.
3. The secondary barcodes didn’t go unnoticed, and very quickly people were circulating lists of barcodes allowing people to compare them against a list, or apps that you could use to just scan them with a smartphone, making it _very_ easy for anyone to circumvent the blind bag format."
There is a wide variety of possible market research data besides sales figures such as various types of survey and behavioural-observation methods. So the format of CMFs as blind bagged is no barrier to LEGO determining preferred themes.
LEGO uses market research extensively in both its strategy and marketing. I would be astonished if it didn't do as much market research - or even more - for product development and find it utterly implausible that it leaves millions in CMF revenues to chance. LEGO may give the impression that its CMF designers decide what each series contains, but that's just a fiction for marketing purposes. In reality, the designers have little discretion except in terms of the actual look of each CMF. In terms of themes (and certain other characteristics), I'm in no doubt that those are governed by a team of suits in product development backed by vast quantities of market research data.
@Zander:
Store employees told me the second barcode was so corporate could track which minifigs were selling. If someone is deciding themes based on popularity, they need to know what’s popular, and at least when S1/S2 released, they had no track record to refer to.
As for who picks what to make, I can believe someone tells them when to make certain licensed themes (particularly movie tie-ins like HP1, TLM1-2, TLBM1-2, and TLNM), but the characters and elements are left to the design team much as any other theme gets to pick their subjects.
Point is, tracking secondary barcodes makes no sense if we were never intended to figure out how to identify the contents until we opened the bag.
I think it's funny that no one seemed to notice yet the issue of having a bakery (with open fire) right next to a mill. Just check out "dust explosion" on wikipedia.
@PurpleDave said:
" @Zander:
Point is, tracking secondary barcodes makes no sense if we were never intended to figure out how to identify the contents until we opened the bag."
While the minifigure in any given CMF packet isn’t known by the consumer, the themes included in each series are. There are images on the packet, the display boxes, the leaflet inside each packet and all over the internet. So kids and adults-buying-for-kids will know there is a chance of getting, for example, some Castle/fantasy minifigures - and that’s important. Kids (and even adults) are terrible at understanding odds, so they will believe the chances of getting the ones they want are higher than they really are.
@legonard said:
"I think it's funny that no one seemed to notice yet the issue of having a bakery (with open fire) right next to a mill. Just check out "dust explosion" on wikipedia."
I think people didn't want to fan the flames of a heated discussion with such a red-hot topic. ;-)
(Was that too many puns... or should I increase the firepower?)
@Zander:
That always depends on when and where you’re shopping, and who else is in the area. When stores reopened during the pandemic, the local LEGO Store was presorting several cases to avoid having guests repeatedly palp the packets, but after a while they would stop sorting until the next series released. I also have no problem helping parents out with a quick ID of the contents, because I’m almost always faster and more accurate, and if I’m nearby I’m very likely going through the bin for myself anyways. But I realize I wasn’t part of the plan when they rolled out blind bags.
So beautiful.
I would personally rather have this 10305 castle be more blocky / classic in look (compared to the spaceship, which looks good both ways), but that's something I can do on my own really. Fantastic set. I'm sorry to say (because I also am worried about prices) but I will definitely pay for this (although I will try to find a little discount).
Milan Madge's dad used to be my tutor at university, I can totally see how Milan is a great designer. His dad is a great teacher.
@Cooking_Steve:
Not according to James Bond!
Sadly out of my price range, and I wish they'd priced it comparably with Barracuda Bay. But it's certainly the ultimate expression of the 80s/90s Castle sets I grew up with, so I can't entirely blame them for wanting to go to this scale/price point, especially since it's been proven over the past couple of years that the AFOL market will bear an astonishing number of £300+ sets simultaneously.
But I can always put my old Royal Knight's Castle and Medieval Market Village sets back together, and deconstruct the Hogwarts Great Hall to extend my medieval world a little...
@BirchBot said:
"Milan Madge's dad used to be my tutor at university, I can totally see how Milan is a great designer. His dad is a great teacher. "
What does/did he teach?
Thank you for the interview and the link to the video!
Seeing it in more detail, I'm wondering what the 1x2 Technic Brick with Hole is used for at the bottom of the right hand tower with the red and yellow 4x1 flags? You can see it (barely) while looking at it from the back on the applicable side or, if looking at the back image on the box, it would be next to the treasure chest and Black Falcons.
The castle disconnects in the middle but I don't see how it would reconnect if you wanted to arrange it opposite of how it's pictured. Clearly, it latches using clips and modified bar plates, not too differently from how the 3-in-1 Medieval Castle does.
I guess I'm just not sure if I'm missing something or there's something else going on with it?
@Vesperas said:
"Thank you for the interview and the link to the video!
Seeing it in more detail, I'm wondering what the 1x2 Technic Brick with Hole is used for at the bottom of the right hand tower with the red and yellow 4x1 flags? You can see it (barely) while looking at it from the back on the applicable side or, if looking at the back image on the box, it would be next to the treasure chest and Black Falcons.
The castle disconnects in the middle but I don't see how it would reconnect if you wanted to arrange it opposite of how it's pictured. Clearly, it latches using clips and modified bar plates, not too differently from how the 3-in-1 Medieval Castle does.
I guess I'm just not sure if I'm missing something or there's something else going on with it?"
I don't really think that Technic pinhole is meant to be a functional element in that sense—it may just be a part choice because of dark grey Technic bricks like that being used elsewhere in the build. It doesn't look like you could use it to rearrange the other parts of the castle, and while you could possibly use it to add some sort of custom expansion, you could only really do so with the castle folded open—when closed, the pinhole would face the wall on the other side, not really allowing space to expand the castle in that direction.
@Cynath said:
" @BirchBot said:
"Milan Madge's dad used to be my tutor at university, I can totally see how Milan is a great designer. His dad is a great teacher. "
What does/did he teach? "
Graphic Design
A future question, I would love answered is was the first round of the designer program used as a test to determine how a 90th anniversary Bionicle set or a castle set would perform, or was the castle decided upon before that? Since you aluded to it being in development for 9 years at LEGOCON.
Secondly was it purposefully decided upon only making 2 finalists of the poll and why did you decide against making a Bionicle set or a Pirates set respectively?
Lastly did Bionicle originally taking first place suprise you?