LEGO Mindstorms to be discontinued
Posted by Huw,
LEGO has announced that Mindstorms, the long-running robotics range, will be discontinued at the end of 2022. An official statement follows:
"Since its launch in September 1998, LEGO Mindstorms has been one of the core ‘Build & Code’ experiences in the company’s portfolio, carrying with it significant brand equity and becoming a stand-out experience for the early days of consumer robotics and leading to current Build & Code experiences such as SPIKE Prime, from LEGO Education’s LEGO Learning System.
"However, now having a number of priorities in LEGO Education and other Build & Code experiences, we have decided to focus our resources and future plans by redirecting our Mindstorms Robot Inventor team and their expertise into different areas of the business.
"This means the physical Mindstorms Robot Inventor product (51515) and its related elements (88016 and 88018) are to exit our portfolio from the end of 2022, whilst digital platforms – such as the LEGO Mindstorms Robot Inventor App – will remain live until at least the end of 2024.
"We still have strong belief in the Build & Code proposition and will continue to support it through platforms such as SPIKE Prime, and we are continuing to hold on to the trademark for the Mindstorms brand and assessing our future plans together with LEGO Education."
This is an interesting development but perhaps not surprising.
When the third version of Mindstorms 31313 EV3 was launched during 2013, it was the most expensive set released that year ($349.99, £299.99) and one of only five costing over $200. As a result, it was a big deal and much excitement ensued both amongst the growing number of adult robotics fans and others who wanted a 'top of the range' LEGO set, not least because it was a significant improvement on the previous generation, NXT.
However, when 51515 Robot Inventor was released two years ago it was just one of dozens of large sets vying for attention on the shelves so did not stand out in the way EV3 did. I think we can conclude from this announcement that it has not sold well.
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Also, although it's easier to program and build with, in many ways it's a retrograde step technologically compared to EV3 (e.g. fewer ports, tethered cables, no LCD on the hub), so it did not excite roboteers in the same way that previous iterations did, and of course there are many other cheaper and more capable robotic platforms on the market today.
51515 shares the hub, motors and sensors with 45678 SPIKE Prime Set, albeit in different colours, so will remain supported and useful via the SPIKE app, which incidentally can be run on any device with a web browser now thanks to the new web app, which is a big deal for anyone with an old computer or tablet.
The current Mindstorms hub firmware supports some features that SPIKE doesn't at the moment, such as hub-to-hub communications. I would like to think that they will be added in due course, although the company's future plans have not yet been revealed.
So, it's not the end of the world: the Mindstorms name will die, which is a shame, but the technology platform will continue to exist and be enhanced over time, albeit targeted at the educational sector rather than consumers. LEGO robotics has always been expensive, now it will be more so.
What are your thoughts on this announcement?
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I didn't even realise this line was still going.
Inevitable, but still sad to hear. Mindstorms has been around for a generation in its various forms, and lots of 80s and 90s kids have entered STEM careers, thanks in part to these products.
51515 is such a bad set compared to ev3.
Maybe it has more functions but it looks way too child-friendy for kids to care.
Even Boost was better
Wow. End of an era. LEGO Mindstorms was what got me into robotics. I never got to own 3804, and it makes me sad to see the Mindstorms name die, considering that STEM is still alive and well today.
No more zamor launcher :(
Here is the sum total of my experience with Mindstorms.
In 2012, before I had gotten back into LEGO, I was walking home from the gym and passed a stoop sale where a guy was selling a complete/like-new Mindstorms set for $25. I bought it, took it home, and listed it on eBay for $200. It sold immediately. He was also selling some Criterion blu-rays and DVDs for $5 each, which I bought and added to my (now very large) movie collection.
I wouldn't do that today. At the time, I had no emotional or moral attachment to LEGO or the LEGO community. It was just a trinket to flip and make some money from the suckers. Today I am the sucker that buys the expensive plastic, not the flipper. So... progress? :|
It's both an enjoyable memory for me and a reminder that at all times that I've been aware of the existence of Mindstorms, its defining characteristic to me has been how expensive it is.
I loved my original yellow brick mindstorms set back then, Its pretty sad to hear another arm of lego being discontinued but i do get it. Back then it was the best of the best, you couldn't get anything like it other than like maybe Meccano. Now though there are dozens of programing toys/apps for kids, and alot of them are cheaper than what lego put out recently.
Just kind of unrelated, but as electronic lego goes, I hope they make some kind of power system that could be plugged into a external power source.
Damn. I always meant to get into it, but kept deferring it while putting my time and money into other lines (and outside, non-LEGO interests). I guess too many other fans were like me. I really wish I could better spread myself around all my LEGO interests.
Now what? Should I scramble to scoop up what Mindstorms stuff I can while I can?
I had planned to buy Robot Inventor for my 9 year old for Xmas - should I still go ahead is there's going to be support for a year or two at least?
Very saddening, I grew up on MINDSTORMS through school robotics programs and FIRST. So while I'm glad the concept will live on in the sectors I know it best, it's a shame it'll be harder to enjoy the system on a hobbyist/at home level.
F in the chat, MINDSTORMS, you were a good one.
Translation: We screwed up the latest version, and walking away was the easiest way to “fix” it.
51515 was the first Mindstorms I didn't buy and it is solely due to the stupid phone app. I might get it now if it's at a huge discount just to be Mindstorms complete.
I wonder if the growth of much cheaper Arduino-compatible robot kits has hurt Mindstorms. There weren't many consumer and kid-friendly robotics kits even just 10 years ago, now you can hardly go on amazon without seeing a new one.
Honestly, I had kind of forgotten that Mindstorms still exists. It's a shame they are discontinuing it, but it's understandable.
Oh what a shame. It was a huge part of my childhood, I remember doing the workshops at Legoland Windsor and being hooked. I guess im many ways it was an idea with an expiration date.
Lego Mindstorms was my first foray into coding and engineering and helped sow the seeds for what would eventually become my passion and career. While nothing lasts forever, it's a shame to see something that had such a major impact on my life end.
Sad that it will end. But Powered Up has started to look more to a simpler type, doing the same. S
Sad, but not surprising, given the recent history. I used 45544 / 45560 sets for several years to teach middle and high school students in the mid-teens, and they were great. It was clear that, for whatever reason, Lego was abandoning this product line just as it appeared to be succeeding in the marketplace. I have no idea why they didn't build on that success with an "EV4" or whatever you could call it, instead of Robot Inventor, or Spike Prime, both of which seem more like toys to me.
I wonder if Control+ will end too? It seems to not be well received. I loved Power Functions
Awww man, what a disappointment.
I have owned every generation of Mindstorms from the original yellow brick (which I still have). I have used them for work and for my own projects. I actually like the 51515 set- it's accessible and easy to use and it's the first generation of Mindstorms that supports Python out of the box.
But, the market has changed- whereas the first RIS was a groundbreaking product, now there are many other competing products based on small computers and microcontrollers like Raspberry Pi and Arduino and the BBC Micro:bit.
It's still possible to use the original RCX thanks to the Mindstorms community, so hopefully there will still be plenty of third party support for many years after the official support is discontinued. In the meantime, I'll be buying up every reduced or special offer 51515 I can find in the next couple of months.
I am truly heartbroken! This was my childhood! Mindstorms gave me a golden childhood. This came out of the blue. I did not expect this at all! I would like to address a common misconception in this comments section. Lego was NOT abandoning the mindstorms line. Sure, in the days of the EV3, it seemed like it with complete silence and lack of updates. However, ever since the release of the 51515 set, we have been getting software updates VERY often. Fans such as myself were even given the opportunity to work directly together with the mindstorms design team.
On August 1st of this year, LEGO has released a new mindstorms app update, one containing many new fan designed official models, including my very own creation, Neptunian. It seemed like everything was perfect, and that mindstorms would still stay strong for many years to come. And not only that, remember that they announced mindstorms machine learning very recently! That obviously took a lot of time to develop and because of all these things, this announcement genuinely SHOCKED me
Not enough degrees of freedom. I said it at each iteration of the system. To move a vehicle, you need at least two outputs (either (1) left and right tracks or (2) forward/backward plus steering). This will only allow you to move around; you still cannot do any useful work. For that you need at the very least 2 degrees of freedom (arm up/down and pincer open/close) preferably more to have some control on how to pick up stuff. Alternatively, if you want to experiment on walkers, you need 8 or 12 outputs depending on if you want to build a 4 or 6 legged robot. Mindstorms started with only 3 outputs and 3 inputs (inputs were used for sensors). I believe the latest version could handle 4 outputs which is still too little to build anything significant. For static models, you could link several Mindstorms modules but that would be too heavy for anything mobile. I suppose, as a learning platform it was fine but the novelty would wear out fairly rapidly. Imagine if you could build a mobile platform (tracks or wheels) with an arm with 5 degrees of freedom on top (1-rotation left/right, 2-arm up/down, 3-fore-arm up/down, 4-wrist rotation, 5-pincer open/close). Finally imagine you could add a camera to this. You could roam all over the place and pick up stuff - now we are talking! For this you need a microcontroller with at least 7 outputs (2 for the platform, 5 for the arm) and most likely a few sensors to detect a few things around. While the module was limited and limiting, it is still sad that they(Lego) end the line. Since it was getting better and better at every iteration, I was hoping that by the time they would reach Mindstorm 25.0, you could control a robot with a fair amount of degrees of freedom.... :-(
Mind what now?
The writing has been on the wall a long time with no real development and exorbitant pricing. In an era where you can have your own laser cutter or 3D printer to create your mechanical contraptions and drive them with a cheap Arduino this seemed completely out of balance. For the money you'd have to invest on a decent Mindstorms/ Spike outfit you can almost build a moon rover from scratch, it seems. The odd approach to programming likely also did not make it easier. To me it always felt that in trying to make it too simple they made it extremely convoluted and inefficient. The whole thing just never seemed attractive enough.
Is there a baseline MindStorms set that is the most flexible (for lack of a better word) if I wanted to get one for kids in a few years?
I'm sure I'll have to contend with secondary Lego prices, but that would be fine if it meant a decent fun/learning experience.
Edit: I’m guessing the Boost set doesn’t have the reputation that MindStorms has had in the past?
Definitely sad. While niche, I did know kids who went into this and learned about coding and robotics. It's eye watering to see it go.
In 1998, 13-year-old me made my first trip to Europe. My Danish-American uncle had a conference in Finland, and took me along to get to see where he was born and to visit Legoland. There was a small booth at the entrance in Billund offering an opportunity to play with Lego robots. It turned out it was a workshop to let some visitors in my age group play with the soon-to-be-released Mindstorms before it went on sale to the general public.
I don't remember much else about my 1998 visit to Legoland other than how amazing Miniland was, and most of those memories were supplanted as I returned 20 years later when I got to participate in the 2018 Inside Tour.
However, getting to test out a new product left a lasting memory and I always admired Mindstorms from afar. I know Lego does extensive product research and whenever I read something about kids getting picked to play with new items before they're unveiled brings back happy memories of when I was younger and got to do just that.
@HOBBES:
Technically, you only need one output to drive. I got a crappy remote control car one year for Christmas. It had controls for forward and backward, and that was it. In forward, it always drove straight. In reverse, the front wheels were mounted in such a way that they’d twist to one side, causing the car to turn automatically. It was a stupid simple control system, but it did technically allow you to drive in any direction.
I don't see this as a negative or something bad. Times has changed since the introduction of this system. Back then this was unique and very futuristic. Right now there is so much alternatives like aforementioned raspberries pies and arduinos and 3d printers and endless resources on the web that mindstorms just cannot compete with. For lego fans this might be the obvious and only choice if they want to go into robotics, but for others minds terms is just too expensive and lacking compared to other choices. But i doubt that lego will not continue to develop a different approach to integrate robotics into its range. And competition makes better products for better price. So yeah, end of an era, but also the beginning of a new one.
o7
EV3 was a great upgrade to NXT, providing all the connectivity and functionality I had wanted to complete my long term build/project. I was looking forward to the next version of Mindstorms but the 51515 set was very disappointing as it couldn't at least replace EV3 like for like for functionality and device reach. I haven't bought it as a consequence.
I'm sad to hear that Mindstorms is coming to an end, but it doesn't surprise me.
The end of an era! I wonder if they'll revive the Mindstorms name in like, ten years or so.
This is bittersweet to be honest.
I do think Mindstorms was a great entry point to learn about robotics - especially for kids. I mean, that was the whole point, right? Give kids an entryway into something they otherwise wouldn't have?
But as technology has progressed, ways to learn coding and robotics have vastly increased. Mindstorms is an expensive avenue, and LEGO has other options in their very own products. If Mindstorms' goal was to teach people how to code, I'd say it was a success.
"Whilst digital platforms – such as the LEGO Mindstorms Robot Inventor App – will remain live until at least the end of 2024."
This is the problem with any App controlled product (not just Lego). They all have a finite lifespan, as it's only a matter of time before support is withdrawn.
This saddens me. As a programmer, the 51515 was the first set that brought me out of my dark ages. Man what sad news. End of an era it sounds like.
Little too expensive for home users, and not quite aligning the education products. Shame its going. Lets hope this means better things with corporate resources redirected to the education portfolio.
Sad to see the name go, at least for now. They'll keep the trademark so they might bring it back. It just sounds so much better than Boost or Spike.
The first Mindstorms was released weeks after coming out of my dark ages and was one of the first sets I bought. I now have a box of RCX's. I've got Nxt and EV-3 as well but never really got into them...
@lordofdragonss said:
"51515 is such a bad set compared to ev3.
Maybe it has more functions but it looks way too child-friendy for kids to care.
Even Boost was better"
I totally agree
As others have said, I didn't realise this theme was still around. In my opinion the kits were too expensive so they only people who bought it were schools using it for Lego challenges. I do wish people would be able to recognise that STEM isn't the only thing needed in the world. Creativity and problem solving in general will help both with STEM and all other career paths/jobs.
Rest in Peace Mindstorms. You will truly be missed for the wonderful opportunities many had with you!
It was one of Lego's best!
Will the sets still work without the app? Or will they be unfunctional once that’s shut down
The only Mindstorms set is 40413, and I'd never seriously considered getting a "real" one, but I always thought it was cool, and I'm sorry to see it go.
@Brickchap:
The issue has never been convincing kids to not go into STEM. People can always take night school to earn a business degree if it’ll earn them a promotion to management, but a NASA janitor isn’t likely to find a pathway to rocket scientist.
@PurpleDave said:
" @HOBBES:
Technically, you only need one output to drive. I got a crappy remote control car one year for Christmas. It had controls for forward and backward, and that was it. In forward, it always drove straight. In reverse, the front wheels were mounted in such a way that they’d twist to one side, causing the car to turn automatically. It was a stupid simple control system, but it did technically allow you to drive in any direction."
True. I had such a vehicle when I was a kid. It 'entertained' me for a whole 20 minutes before I found it annoying to back off 6-7 times to get it to go where I wanted. This thing annoyed me so much, I began wondering what kind of (devious) person would actually release such a toy to kids. Needless to say this junk was returned. I would never inflict such a deceptive thing (car do not move that way) on a kid.
Of course it didn't sell well... You're offering an inferior product for the same (300+!) high price point!
Shame the line has to die because they released a crappy product.
@HOBBES:
It was functional-ish on an open floor, but it's nearly impossible to navigate any sort of obstacle course that's not specifically designed for the limits of that design. You need adequate room to back up far enough to reorient every time you need to turn, where a proper obstacle course will make the turns fairly tight. If you were to drive a true RC car of similar size through such an obstacle course, the wide open space needed for this version to change directions would eliminate any challenge for an RC car with independent steering.
*Rue's Whistle Song plays*
@illennium said:
"Here is the sum total of my experience with Mindstorms.
In 2012, before I had gotten back into LEGO, I was walking home from the gym and passed a stoop sale where a guy was selling a complete/like-new Mindstorms set for $25. I bought it, took it home, and listed it on eBay for $200. It sold immediately. He was also selling some Criterion blu-rays and DVDs for $5 each, which I bought and added to my (now very large) movie collection.
I wouldn't do that today. At the time, I had no emotional or moral attachment to LEGO or the LEGO community. It was just a trinket to flip and make some money from the suckers. Today I am the sucker that buys the expensive plastic, not the flipper. So... progress? :|
It's both an enjoyable memory for me and a reminder that at all times that I've been aware of the existence of Mindstorms, its defining characteristic to me has been how expensive it is."
Very few feelings as good as finding random Criterion discs for cheap, one of which is finding random LEGO for cheap.
An honorary bonk has fallen, the BIONICLE fandom sends its condolences
I own every generation, and IMHO EV3 is definitely the pinnacle. 51515 is too much of canned solutions, not really in the spirit of previous generations. It’s more like “Spike Prime for adults”. Not terribly surprised about its demise, but not terribly disappointed, either.
What about first Lego league?
Also, I can see the Ev3 hub's prices ballooning real soon...
We loved the old Mindstorms Yellow Brick. At Legoland California, there was a Mindstorms play area where a child could assemble a simple wheeled robot and "program" it to follow a line and dunk a basketball, then it could move "in a victory dance pattern," said the instructor. My daughter programmed her Mindstorms robot to follow the line fast, dunk the basketballs quickly, so she would have more time --and programming steps-- to create victory "dance moves" robot move left, robot move right, raise arms up, raise arms down, etc. Her goal was to get the wheeled robot to mimic ballet dance steps that she had been learning. This was Lots of Lego Computer excitement for a little girl twenty Years ago. Viva the Lego Yellow Mindstorms Brick !
@oceanclub said:
"I had planned to buy Robot Inventor for my 9 year old for Xmas - should I still go ahead is there's going to be support for a year or two at least?"
I wanted to buy it for my daughter for December 5th, but as the app only runs for another 2 years I will pass.
@oceanclub said:
"I had planned to buy Robot Inventor for my 9 year old for Xmas - should I still go ahead is there's going to be support for a year or two at least?"
They will have Spike. Which is same main hub and compatible motors and sensors. The Mindstorm set has cool projects and technic pieces
@oceanclub said:
"I had planned to buy Robot Inventor for my 9 year old for Xmas - should I still go ahead is there's going to be support for a year or two at least?"
They said that there will be support through 2024
"[...] the Mindstorms name will die, which is a shame [...]"
@Huw : in the press release LEGO states they're "continuing to hold on to the trademark for the Mindstorms brand", meaning they have to actively use the name on products to maintain the trademark. Thus the name Mindstorms will not die. Names don't die anyway, as long as they're being mentioned. :-)
I guess I better look for an EV3 controller brick. I just picked up all the 31313 sensors but no controller brick, and I've seen a couple of articles that say the sensors won't talk to an NXT controller.
@ToysFromTheAttic:
You don’t immediately lose trademark status. It takes at least a couple years of disuse before it becomes vulnerable. I’m not sure if just mentioning the name qualifies to keep the trademark active, or if you actually have to provide a function or product under that name.
@PurpleDave said:
" @ToysFromTheAttic :
You don’t immediately lose trademark status. It takes at least a couple years of disuse before it becomes vulnerable. I’m not sure if just mentioning the name qualifies to keep the trademark active, or if you actually have to provide a function or product under that name."
I think a mention on any kind of a product in a specific product group can be enough. Hasbro and Mattel hold onto certain trademarks for their toy brands by using them on other toys. So, you'll find Hotwheels cars named after Masters Of The Universe characters, just to hold onto that specific name. I think Mattel has sometimes kept a trademark of theirs active by simply printing the word on the box of a toy. Either way, as long as LEGO is making sure they keep their trademark on the name Mindstorms, they name won't 'die'. It'll be in a state of disuse for a few years at best.
People have been mentioning Mindstorms will "live on" with the Spike sets. For comparison purposes, using the listing here:
51515 Mindstorms Robot Inventor: RRP=$360, 949 pieces incl. Large Hub (Dark Turquoise)
45678 SPIKE Prime: RRP=$385, 528 pieces incl. Large Hub (Yellow)
45345 SPIKE Essential: RRP=$295, 442 pieces incl. Small Hub (Yellow)
Spike is even more expensive than Mindstorms...
It's not that easy to buy 51515 anymore as lots of toy shops and Amazon.co.uk stopped selling a while back, suggesting TLG stopped production some time ago and only found available on the Lego store.
The main problem is kids are still using EV3 in high schools and clubs for building, coding and competitions, as the schools don't have the money to replace everything with Spike, instead they would rather have a more advanced compatible EV4 set for the senior years. As this is not available they are moving onto Arduino projects instead which are far more adaptable and cheaper to incorporate into design technology courseworks.
So without Spike in the schools their was no real interest among the kids in buying 51515 at home to continue the class.
Spike prime is educational and also comes with a rechargeable battery pack so more expensive. This is one area where 51515 suffered as kids lose interest once the batteries die.
@ambr , the 51515 hub is identical to the Spike one, so has the same rechargeable battery.
epic loss for all the "gifted and talented" programs (not really at least where i went, last i checked they're still using old versions from the mid 2000s) (my experiences may not be universal)
I am very confused by the query I sent to LEGO.com asking for verification of the discontinuing announcement. Here is the reply I got:
Thanks for your question!
There is no official statement about this product. Our marketing team has a long-term plan for our products and whether this product is included or not we can't tell at this point.
If this is the decision that has been made by the LEGO® company, an official statement would still need to be released as there has been no official statement released.
I hope I have hereby informed you accordingly and wish you a great rest of the day!
Kind regards,
Joris
LEGO® Customer Service
@poulterfamily, it sounds as if Joris is ill-informed. The news came directly for LEGO via the ambassador network.
@Huw
What products did you have in mind when you stated "and of course there are many other cheaper and more capable robotic platforms on the market today"?
@Huw:
I mentioned the brittle plastic problem to one of their phone reps, and she had never heard about it before. I would really like to find out the end years for that issue, but I’m not sure if that info is even out there for the public to access, short of trial and error.
So Mindstorms is (mostly) dead, but long live the Raspberry Pi Build HAT, right? Maybe once the chip shortage ends, we'll see a new one with more than 4 Power Functions ports.
I think they should make another ev3 perhaps an ev4.
mindstorms shouldn't die
This set 51515 has been half-dead since its release. Biggest problem: it was never available through school suppliers. So as teacher I had a big problem. Either go through hoops to get 51515 kits, or swallow the mud and get a bf ugly Spike kit. Seriously Lego, who designed the obnoxious colour scheme of 34567? 51515 had two other main hurdles: the iPad app was one big failure, and the whole Tricky/Blast/Gelo model thing should have been left out. 51515 is the BEST EVER lego set made. Why? Because like NO OTHER set, it invites you to make something from scratch. The pieces are a marvelous pick of frames, motors and gears that you can turn into any smart robot you can think off. Spike does not allow this on the same level.
The software hurdle was only fixed recently by the BrickLife team, they made what Lego should have made from the start: Scratch with Mindstorms support. No, Lego thought the opposite: cripple Scratch to a half baked tablet app in a walled Lego garden. Bricklife is 100% scratch with support for all smart hubs. So you can make a computer interface for any creation.
So Mindstorms is not dead, as Spike = 100% similar on a techical level, but you will have to swallow the ugliness that comes with Spike.
Rest in pieces Mindstorms! :((
It would have been nice to get all those functionalities in future Technic sets (since they share the same platform) instead of letting the theme slide into an Education only program that is extremely hard to come buy. I'm sick of vehicles using only smartphone controlled dumb hubs and motors. Remember the cool Control Center or Barcode Scanner?
NXT really was "next generation". Sadly that was not the case with the 5 Sisis (51515).