Mindstorms v4: first impressions
Posted by Huw,
We had a sneak peek at the new 51515 Robot Inventor at the recent virtual fan media days, so I've had a chance to give it some thought.
Technology-wise it is identical to 45678 SPIKE Prime released earlier this year, which is something of a relief for me because I've invested heavily both intellectually and financially into the educational kit.
You may recall that in an article I wrote in February about using Spike Prime for GBCs, I stated "LEGO is not marketing Spike Prime as a Mindstorms replacement, even though it pretty much does everything that EV3 does, and then some. Given that EV3 is now 7 years old it's obvious that it will be replaced by a Powered Up-based product in the not-too-distant future. I'm not a betting man, but if I was, I'd put my money on it being very similar to this."
It appears that I was spot on except that Spike Prime is being marketed as a Mindstorms replacement.
It's interesting that LEGO appears to be delineating its educational and consumer robotics product lines from a marketing perspective this time. The third generation of Mindstorms, EV3, was called Mindstorms whether it was intended for home or classroom use, but now that's not the case. The educational one is Spike, the consumer one, Mindstorms.
Spike and the Robot Inventor share the exact same motors, hubs and sensors, albeit with different colour cases and in different quantities (see below). However, they will have different software development environments, although I will be surprised if they can't be used interchangeably. The Mindstorms one will be geared towards playing, the Spike one towards learning. Both will enable code to be written in Scratch or Python (the Spike app has been updated this week with Python support).
The hub in 51515 differs only from the Spike one, below, in that it has a teal base instead of a yellow one. They both have a 5x5 LED matrix, a rechargeable battery, a micro USB port and bluetooth connectivity. It can be powered from the USB port while running, thus making use in an exhibition environment possible.
Spike Prime contains one large motor and two medium ones. Robot Inventor comes with four medium motors, which are coloured light grey and white, but no large one. However, I believe a grey-coloured one will be included in one of the August Technic releases.
Spike Prime comes with a distance sensor, a colour sensor and a touch/force sensor. Robot Designer does not come with a touch/force sensor because, it was explained to us at the fan media days, in most use cases the colour sensor can be used instead, and that is certainly my experience.
If you have a need for a touch sensor, it can be purchased from educational suppliers, and I would say that it's highly likely that LEGO will sell them, and the other components, separately at LEGO.com in due course, too.
As far as the other parts in the sets go, many of the new elements introduced in Prime, such as the biscuits, wheels, Technic building plate and large frames make an appearance in 51515 Robot Inventor, too, albeit in different colours. The Mindstorms set comes with some circular wheels that I am not familiar with (but which I've been told is this one that's included in 75253 Droid Commander), rather than the metal ball bearing castor wheel found in Spike.
So, which should you buy? If you're buying for a child then 51515 Robot Inventor is the way to go, because it's likely to make learning more fun.
However, if you're a robot/Mindstorms pro already you might be better off with Spike unless you particularly want to build the Inventor robots, because the large motor and touch sensor provide more flexibility. Also, it's already available, and at a discount from Amazon (£309 in the UK, $369 in the USA). And, most importantly, Mindstorms looks pretty drab to me: Spike's bright blue, yellow and purple is much more aesthetically pleasing than teal, white and black!
What's your take? Are you already using Spike?
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22 comments on this article
This is really interesting. The stuff that is here is cool, but probably will not interest most people. It's really nice for those who like this sort of thing, though.
I can't decide what to think. As a Mindstorms user since the first Robotics Invention System (9719) I'm a bit disappointed. I was hoping for something a bit more of a technological leap forwards. As an educator, I'm pleased that we finally have some consistency, hopefully for the next few years, and text based language support without third party software. Hopefully the price will come down a bit, and hopefully there'll be some interesting extra sensors available.
Thank you for this article. As soon as I saw Mindstorms V4 I thought, how is this different from Spike. You have highlighted the major differences well.
I am most excited by the blurb I read on Brothers Brick stating "The app will also include a digital remote control builder that will work across all Powered Up sets to give builders the freedom they want to customize controllers specific to their creations." That sounds awesome.
^ Ah yes. We are finally seeing a convergence of Powered Up platforms and that is one of the enablers.
The Spike hub can already recognise and drive the Control+ motors found in Technic sets but they don't provide positioning information in return.
I can imagine for most senior schools or those who already have EV3 this is not a large enough leap forward to switch to a new format (hence dropping the E for evolution in V4). In particular, bluetooth and app block programing are already available with EV3 for younger students. The main selling point away from EV3, was that without the programmable micro-PC brick and using the users own tablet/smart phone etc. the cost would be lower, as demonstrated by boost. So unsure why Spike seems to be about the same price as EV3, possibly the new hub with rechargeable battery, built in gyro etc. and generous 4 motors results in arriving at where we started.
@ambr said:
"I can imagine for most senior schools or those who already have EV3 this is not a large enough leap forward to switch to a new format (hence dropping the E for evolution in V4). In particular, bluetooth and app block programing are already available with EV3 for younger students. The main selling point away from EV3, was that without the programmable micro-PC brick and using the users own tablet/smart phone etc. the cost would be lower, as demonstrated by boost. So unsure why Spike seems to be about the same price as EV3, possibly the new hub with rechargeable battery, built in gyro etc. and generous 4 motors results in arriving at where we started."
This is not being positioned for schools—that's what SPIKE Prime is for. This is more the consumer-grade version of that, targeted at older kids than Boost.
Personally, as a fan of themes like Bionicle and Cyber-Slam, I'm happy to see the grand return of teal to Technic parts! I didn't mind the colorful SPIKE Prime but I imagine the slightly more coordinated color scheme of these might appeal more to some builders (and possibly be easier to effectively integrate into other sorts of MOCs without visibly disrupting their color scheme).
I have bought the Spike Prime set (and the expansion box), not with any specific aim in mind, but just because I like messing around with these sorts of things.
Sounds like there's little point in me looking at a Mindstorms v4 if I've already got Spike. Glad to see Lego are still in the robotics game though. I did wonder, after Mindstorms v3 had been out for so long with no apparent replacement on the horizon, if they'd decided to quietly drop this kind of thing.
@Lyichir said:
"Personally, as a fan of themes like Bionicle and Cyber-Slam"
Looks like they have you ready to rumble with rubber bumper scissor extender beam action out the box!
Mindstorms EV3 and Mindstorms v4 seem to be directed at very different audiences. On one hand I think this is a bit of a shame, on the other hand I'm relieved my Mindstorms EV3 is not out of date.
The leds instead of a screen is a shame. I was hoping for a more high-tech update, such as a colour OLED screen and powerful Li-ion battery.
My Spike Prime kit (and expansion set) arrived yesterday, so of course this announcement would come today.
I will probably still buy 51515 when it arrives, or at least a partial set without the hub. If I do end up with two hubs, it's BattleBots time!
Edit: I'm still not sold on the decision to get away from the LCD screen on the hub. The 5x5 matrix feels like a big step backwards. Perhaps we'll see a peripheral display unit at some point?
^ you will be better off with Spike, IMO, unless you're a kid :-)
The teal kingdom grows ever stronger
I'm really glad Mindstorms is finally making a comeback. While I probably won't get the set, I'm very excited to see what models will come of the new Spike parts in a Mindstorms context.
@Huw said:
"^ Ah yes. We are finally seeing a convergence of Powered Up platforms and that is one of the enablers.
The Spike hub can already recognise and drive the Control+ motors found in Technic sets but they don't provide positioning information in return."
There is no such thing as control+ motors
Control+ is an application
How about the micro usb?
Really, when i unpacked the set first thing i said: WHAT?? Not usb gen3?
@Huw said:
"^ you will be better off with Spike, IMO, unless you're a kid :-)"
Aren't we all? But no, the primary audience is my daughter, a budding FLL competitor.
I guess I'll wait for the parts list to make a determination, but the prospect of some generational robot warfare might make the sale on its own.
@VictorvanSchagen:
A fellow LUG member has started having problems with the NXT screens just dying. The bricks still function, but you can no longer tell what you're doing when going through the menu system. They may have based this decision on that, since the EV3 bricks are probably too new to have started exhibiting the same problem.
Looks fun, but I the models and their colorshemes are...boring?
Now that I look at the hub, I can't see a way to make Brick Programs (simple programs made on the brick) like in the EV3 set, because there are no buttons and no screens. Is it possible to do that on this hub?
Finally, python support out of the box! As someone who has dual-booted their EV3 with the Debian-based alternative firmware just to have a non-visual programming environment, this is a huge plus for me and likely many other members of the community. A proper programming language makes robotics much easier. Even though I already own both Boost and the EV3 home kit, I might just look into buying this based on that feature alone.
@Darth_Studhilus There is a 5x5 LED matrix, three buttons and what appears to be a RGB backlight on those buttons. EV3 had a 178x128 monochrome display and five buttons (excluding back, which terminates the program), as well as the three-color two-pattern backlight on the buttons. Smaller numbers and more colors, it seems. Brick programs are for sure still possible, however.
Whilst I am disappointed that this is a step backwards in terms of raw power compared to the EV3, I can understand why they went this route in terms of the programmable brick (its probably not as power hungry as the EV3 brick, its almost certainly cheaper to manufacture than the EV3 brick while still having much of the functionality the EV3 brick did in terms of what the kids and school students who this brick is the target of actually want and need)