18+ sets to be labelled Icons
Posted by Huw,
LEGO has just issued a statement about the categorisation of Adults Welcome/18+ sets in its online store and elsewhere:
From June 1st, 2022, we will be uniting many of our adult focused LEGO sets under the name LEGO Icons to help our adult consumers easily to find new, immersive builds or models that link to their interests and passions, particularly when shopping or browsing online. The name LEGO Icons will span all of our sets designed for older builders that are not already part of an existing LEGO theme such as LEGO Technic, LEGO Ideas or LEGO Architecture.
This raises the question, then, what should we do in our database? At the moment 18+ sets are tagged as such but they reside within the appropriate themes. We have continued to categorise themeless ones as Creator Expert even though LEGO ceased to use that name in 2020.
The most obvious thing to do is to see what sets are labelled as Icons at LEGO.com on Wednesday then assign them to a new theme here, but then that would mean that, for example, modular buildings and winter village sets would be split across two themes, Icons and Creator Expert. Would that matter?
Let us know what you think in the comments.
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123 comments on this article
I hated 18+ with a passion so anything is better than that.
as an old fan, to me they were Creator Experts all along but I guess two words is just too long for people to remember these days
I don't think "icons" is a good word for 18+ sets. "Icon" is not the first word I would use to describe the subjects of many 18+ sets.
I would go with what's being added to the category on the Lego site. As for Winter Village and Modulars, you could put them in the relevant sections for their era (icons / creator expert) and just have a tag to unite them. If we want to see all the modulars, we just use the 'modular buildings' tag instead of a theme category.
Perhaps sets should be able to belong to multiple themes in your database? I've always felt Lego should do this too. For example the medival blacksmith should be a Castle set and an Ideas set at the same time. If I'm browsing for castle sets, I want to find the blacksmith.
Not a fan of the theme ‘Icons’ but it won’t stop me enjoying the sets under that theme
Couldn’t you rename the category as something like “Creator Expert / Icons” or “Icons (FKA Creator Expert)”?
Don't care how they are called as long as the builds are great - which has been the case in the last couple of years. Lego has improved tremendously in terms of average quality of AFOL sets. Just wish I could afford them all.
Regardless of what ever they decide to call them, Creator Expert is what I will always call these sets. It sounds much significantly better than both 18+ and Icons.
Wish LEGO would reinstate the Expert tag to sets.
@Huw said:
"This raises the question, then, what should we do in our database? At the moment 18+ sets are tagged as such but they reside within the appropriate themes. We have continued to categorise themeless ones as Creator Expert even though LEGO ceased to use that name in 2020."
Knowing how database/tables work I understand why everyone gets the categorisation "wrong". It's a nightmare with all the inconsistency Lego introduces. Personally I would add the 'Icons' tag to all new sets that are labeled this way and forego hierarchy as much as possible since it only complicates matters.
Just add it to the 18+ tag.
Laughable. As we would say in the advertising/ media industry: A clear lack of a long-term marketing concept. They'll burn through these labels year after year and only confuse the costumers even more. The 18+ moniker was just fine, if not particularly original, and at least made sense for a lot of sets. I honestly don't know what "icons" are even supposed to be. That's like a jeweller trying to sell you an ugly, but expensive ring by re-branding it...
I suggest waiting. The Icons name (which I personally like, just not so sure about the wordmark) has been floating around for several months if not a year now and there's no rush to re-categorize anything.
@csiramokus said:
"as an old fan, to me they were Creator Experts all along but I guess two words is just too long for people to remember these days"
For me, it's not that it's too long. It's that the name is entirely irrelevant to the Creator brand, which is all about rebuilding, and creating your own designs, which none of the sets in this line had ever tried to promote until recently with things like the Porsche 911 and the DeLorean. To this day I'm still not sure how it came about all those years ago. Alternate builds didn't even survive past Café Corner (again until the aforementioned vehicles), and the only "Creator" remnant is the parts list on the box which ironically doesn't appear on 3-in-1 boxes. Icons is a far better descriptor of these sets than Creator Expert ever was. Maybe a good middle ground would be "Expert", with the headlight bricks logo. These are expert models, we all agree. They just have nothing to do with creative building/rebuilding; even the name Ideas wouldn't have been as egregious.
Don't forget that this is just another marketing stupidity and they will probably rename this in less than 12 months (to something even more 'immersive') so it's probably best to keep it in the Creator Expert series with the attached tag "Icon".
By the way the underlying core message of this marketing blah is: "we know our customers are really dumb, so we have to print some identifier on the box so they are able to find the set they are looking for".
I imagine that preserving the existing labels like Creator Expert as Lego inevitably continues to change theirs will prove unsustainable in the long term. Ten years from now, when someone wants to look up the newest modular building, will they know to look under "Creator Expert"? Probably not. This is already a bit of a problem in the case of 10190, for instance, an unambiguously Factory set listed under Creator Expert. I suggest following Lego's new labels and retaining the tags as a means of providing continuity. If there isn't already a way to search directly by tag, however, there probably ought to be.
Prefer Creator Expert.
@IgelCampus said:
"By the way the underlying core message of this marketing blah is: "we know our customers are really dumb, so we have to print some identifier on the box so they are able to find the set they are looking for". "
It's more for people who don't really know what they're looking for, but would for example like to browse through more adult-oriented sets. Of course Icons in no way suggests being adult-oriented, but it's bland enough to avoid casual customers' "problems" like thinking Creator Expert requires expert skills or expecting a hidden penis somewhere in a 18+ Winnie the Pooh set.
The LEGO marketing department is an absolute s***show. Whomever comes up with these things is probably making sure they will have a job in the coming future as they will likely rename it every two years, because of "not connecting to target audience anymore".
I hate it when a set uses a needlessly complicated technique just to show off that the designer did it. This branding may warn me well enough that I'll pause before buying.
Just to confuse everyone maybe they should bring back the most popular classic sets and call them iconic?
I would like to keep Creator Expert, can you tag the new sets as both Icon and Creator Expert?
Oh well, I think that '18+' feels simply stupid and was a mistake when clearly a lot of x-teen LEGO fans are able and interested to build these sets. There is nothing 18+ about them. Now 'Icon' name feels like doing the same mistake twice, what does it even mean... are Succulents an icon? Why not to call them simply 'Expert' sets. That name almost suggests itself.
Unavoidably, these will end up in different themes. The only sane thing to do (IMHO) is to have the 'ICON' (or 'EXPERT') theme for those that don't fit into any existing themes an for those that do simply mark them with the 'ICON' (or 'EXPERT') tag.
I think its ICONS because it will have a LOAD of Licenced stuff that is considered ICONIC. ANd modulars will end up as a new propper theme.
@Mylenium said:
"Laughable. As we would say in the advertising/ media industry: A clear lack of a long-term marketing concept. They'll burn through these labels year after year and only confuse the costumers even more. The 18+ moniker was just fine, if not particularly original, and at least made sense for a lot of sets. I honestly don't know what "icons" are even supposed to be. That's like a jeweller trying to sell you an ugly, but expensive ring by re-branding it..."
Exactly this, they keep changing this branding like they change underwear. I like the simplified black boxes, just stick with that and let the complexity of the models speak for themselves.
The reason they’ve ditched ‘Creator Expert’ as a marketing term is because its probably ostracising to the new potential AFOL crowd they’re trying to attract.
The term ‘Expert’ suggests that adults already need to be well versed with ‘basic’ Lego, when in reality, Creator Expert/18+ sets can be built by anyone who can put two bricks together.
They can call it whatever they want, I don’t care. As long as the sets are awesome, carry on!
I still think they should go with some sort of skill based category instead of age eg. Beginner, Intermediate, Expert etc.
@Are said:
"Perhaps sets should be able to belong to multiple themes in your database? I've always felt Lego should do this too. For example the medival blacksmith should be a Castle set and an Ideas set at the same time. If I'm browsing for castle sets, I want to find the blacksmith."
Was going to suggest the same thing that you should be able to multi-tag sets. Seems an easy way to do it as you're always going to get people who can't agree on a single theme, as with the mentioned Medieval Blacksmith.
I think Advanced would have been a better name
Icons is an interesting choice, and may make sense for some sets, but how are flowers iconic?
Honestly, although I was initially ambivalent, the 18+ made some sort of sense to me because people who are into Lego will buy regardless, but those who aren't were able to identify sets that prioritised aesthetic over function. Additionally, the 18+ sets have been pretty great.
As for the database, I agree with those who are suggesting to wait and see what Lego does.
Is there an option to ignore what LEGO and everyone is saying, and base the categorisation off what is actually printed on the box / packaging for each set? XD
It's interesting because one of my local stores has been using the theme name Icons for a while for a few 18+ sets. Coincidence?
https://altex.ro/lego-jucarii/cpl/filtru/colectie-8837/icons/
Whatever. Call it what you want, just give us more prints than stickers per set.
Not a fan. Freestyle, Classic, etc are already confusing enough. The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings were categorized separately on the site IIRC but here they're the same. Why not do that? Creator Expert/Icons.
I would prefer a label (don't care much about the label name) rather than a new theme. I wouldn't like the split a new theme causes.
I think LEGO realised they were losing profits because of minors who couldn't produced their ID when purchasing any sets marked 18+.
I actually sort of like it :)
As example, it was annoying looking for F.r.i.e.n.d.s. Apartment cuz it was under creator, while Central Perk was under Ideas. Hope all this kind of iconic sets will be under one search now :)
18+ sets should be called just Expert! Simple as that. Sequel to Creator Expert line. And even have they own logo
https://i2.wp.com/retiringsets.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/LEGO-Creator-Expert-Logo-267x300.png
Rename the Creator Experts category into "Icons" or "Icons (Creator Expert)".
Creator Expert was never a theme to begin with. The Expert was a descriptive word tossed unto Creator sets that don't fall into the mainline Creator sets conventions like having multiple alternate builds. If something has to be a Tag it should be Creator Expert, not Icons.
Icons is a weird name but it is more inclusive of the sets in the Creator Expert theme than that name ever was, as sets like the James Bond car clearly don't belong to Creator or Creator Expert despite this being the official branding. One-off Licenses are the reason why there is now Icons instead of having to litter the websites with distinct categories which are only occupied by one set each, anyway, so when Lego did the renaming to reestablish consistency this should be carried over here, too.
The word Creator should only be for sets that have official alternate builds or are conceptualized as parts packs.
All of the detailed car models and sculptures, even the ancient ones from 2000, are clearly Icons. Stuff like fairground rides and Winter Village are not really Icons but due to the lack of inherent customizability they are closer to Icons than Creator.
No issue! Just rename the theme as “Creator Expert/Icons” so all the sets, new and old, can live within the shared theme!
Lego has not even fully let go of the Creator Expert title yet.
On Lego.com it is (to this day) used if you shop sets by theme. The fact that they have felt the need to keep the label there for two years after ‘discontinuing’ the theme shows the 18+ branding was not fully consistent everywhere. So it’s not a huge surprise they have been reconsidering “18+”.
I would just put Icons in the tags, especially as they'll probably change it again in a year
@PH2191 said:
"Couldn’t you rename the category as something like “Creator Expert / Icons” or “Icons (FKA Creator Expert)”?"
This was my first thought too.
@Are said:
"Perhaps sets should be able to belong to multiple themes in your database? I've always felt Lego should do this too. For example the medival blacksmith should be a Castle set and an Ideas set at the same time. If I'm browsing for castle sets, I want to find the blacksmith."
I like this idea but wonder how far it should go, should the lego batman movie sets also be DC sets for example?
@Are said:
"Perhaps sets should be able to belong to multiple themes in your database? I've always felt Lego should do this too. For example the medival blacksmith should be a Castle set and an Ideas set at the same time. If I'm browsing for castle sets, I want to find the blacksmith."
Indeed, as LEGO already indicates in their own press release.
"The name LEGO Icons will span all of our sets designed for older builders that are not already part of an existing LEGO theme such as LEGO Technic, LEGO Ideas or LEGO Architecture."
The "Expert"/"Icons"/"18+" badge should be a sort of advanced/expert designation next to the primary branding of a set. So, you could have a City, Castle, Star Wars whatever theme, Expert set. I still feel the word "Expert" serves that purpose best.
Maybe keep Creator Expert and Icons. Additionally, you could do what BrickLink does, separating the Creator Expert theme into multiple categories. Very interesting development though, hopefully a way for Lego to correct the marketing dabocal with the "18+" line.
I thought icons were sacred paintings used in religious devotion.
can't wait for the 50% price hike!
@Are said:
"Perhaps sets should be able to belong to multiple themes in your database? I've always felt Lego should do this too. For example the medival blacksmith should be a Castle set and an Ideas set at the same time. If I'm browsing for castle sets, I want to find the blacksmith."
Word!! Totally agree!
@Chilis_no said:
" @Are said:
"Perhaps sets should be able to belong to multiple themes in your database? I've always felt Lego should do this too. For example the medival blacksmith should be a Castle set and an Ideas set at the same time. If I'm browsing for castle sets, I want to find the blacksmith."
Word!! Totally agree!"
That would require a total re-working of the database structure, unfortunately. We could ditch themes and subthemes altogether and replace them with tags, thus removing any hierarchy and allowing sets to have multiple themes, subthemes, or whatever, but I don't think that would be desirable. Given the way tags are used now, somewhat prolifically, the important ones would be lost among the mass of them.
@Are said:
"Perhaps sets should be able to belong to multiple themes in your database? I've always felt Lego should do this too. For example the medival blacksmith should be a Castle set and an Ideas set at the same time. If I'm browsing for castle sets, I want to find the blacksmith."
Oh, goodness yes, yes, a thousand times yes. If I click on the theme for The LEGO Movie I want the results to include the whole line, including the blind-bagged minifigures and the LEGO Dimensions packs.
@Spaceman82 said:
"I like this idea but wonder how far it should go, should the lego batman movie sets also be DC sets for example?"
Certainly! If a set is clearly relevant to multiple themes it should show up in all those themes, and yeah, this means some sets belong to more than two themes, and even that some whole themes can be considered subthemes of multiple other themes. For example, The LEGO Batman Movie sets are clearly all DC-related, but also all part of the total range of sets derived from the “LEGO Cinematic Universe” of LEGO and WB, and some of them also fall into the Minifigures line, some of them in LEGO Dimensions, etc.
@Huw
Maybe it is time to ditch the rigidness of an SQL schema (which it sounds like you are using) and go towards a graph structure? If you need/want help, let me know. I can point you in the right direction.
@Huw said:
" @Chilis_no said:
" @Are said:
"Perhaps sets should be able to belong to multiple themes in your database? I've always felt Lego should do this too. For example the medival blacksmith should be a Castle set and an Ideas set at the same time. If I'm browsing for castle sets, I want to find the blacksmith."
Word!! Totally agree!"
That would require a total re-working of the database structure, unfortunately. We could ditch themes and subthemes altogether and replace them with tags, thus removing any hierarchy and allowing sets to have multiple themes, subthemes, or whatever, but I don't think that would be desirable. Given the way tags are used now, somewhat prolifically, the important ones would be lost among the mass of them."
I (and probably many others) are quite fond of the themes and subthemes categories so please keep them :)
If anything some subthemes could do with subthemes (as for example theme DC has subtheme DCEU but that could probably be subdivided into individual movies like the Star Wars movies but then I guess that is what tags are for).
I'd echo others and say that the theme should probably be Creator Expert / Icons or just be part of the Creator Expert theme with 18+ or Icons tags but then it's pretty stupid of Lego to change the name once again.
I would like to find all new, corresponding sets going forward under 2 tags (Icons, Creator Expert), but not apply the Icons tag recursively to the older Creator Expert and +18 Sets.
This way sets from June 1st have the 2 tags Icons & Creator Expert. Sets from before June 1st have 2 tags (18+ & Creator Expert), and sets from before 18+ was introduced have just 1 tag (Creator Expert).
Creator Expert connects them all as the master tag, while the others help to filter by specific periods.
Edit: after Huw‘s post that a database update isn‘t in the cards, I would suggest to keep them all under Creator Expert and work with an additional label for Icons
"Icons" is kind of confusing to me. Does it mean that sets under this theme are meant to be so extraordinary to be remembered as iconic masterpieces brought to you by LEGO? I can think of several iconic sets created in the past which belong to other themes as well as many sets labelled 18+ that are far from being called iconic.
Regardless, I don't really care about theme names. LEGO can call them whatever they want, at the end of the day is the quality of each individual set what matters when it comes to deciding whether or not to buy it.
@busyman said:
"It's interesting because one of my local stores has been using the theme name Icons for a while for a few 18+ sets. Coincidence?
https://altex.ro/lego-jucarii/cpl/filtru/colectie-8837/icons/"
Interesting. Is that true in Romania generally? If so, LEGO may have been using the Romanian market to test the concept. Alternatively, someone at LEGO/a consultancy may have been doing research, come across the Romanian name and suggested that as the name to use.
IMHO create a tag ICONS and apply this tab to all 18+ sets with release date previous to June 1st 2022, and create ICONS theme for sets released after June 1st 2022
Dumb
They clearly can't find a branding they like for these sets, so they keep trying. This isn't any worst than any other that they have used. But is also isn't better either. Keep trying fellows, you might get it right one of these days.
Unless they also include Ideas in this label, Icons doesn't quite strike me as representing what was displayed in 18+ sets. The architectural and historical stuff works well with that, but not the modulars and other original sets.
I really wonder why they left the Expert label behind. It was just about pointing at sets with more intricate designs and higher number of pieces, and I'm certain a ton of kids were proud to say they had built expert sets.
I don't hate it! Better than just 18+. That was always weird.
I see Many damaged black boxes and would really like them to stop with that color as you see any Scratch on them. Which takes away the deluxe feeling,
For the name icons feels a bit off. 18+ is a tad misleading or mislabeled.
Call it nostalgic or expert or collectorseries.
It's laughable that a bunch of internet commenters with zero experience in marketing think they are so much better at it than the most successful toy company in the world.
These changes have nothing to do with hard-core Lego fans who frequent websites like Brickset. (Though they do affect how Brickset might categorize sets, as Huw mentioned.) Lego markets to our demographic thru the Lego Ambassador Network, by sending sets and information early to Brickset and others so they can release information and reviews shortly before big/important sets go on sale.
If anybody commenting on Brickset wants to find the newest modular building or a new set like the Delorean Time Machine or a botanical set, we'll find it. The categories are useful for us, but not dealbreakers. They are more important for others who are not like us.
Lego's marketing department has far more information on sales and its customers than most of us realize. It's not just "this set sells more than this set." Lego VIP isn't just to give our bonus points and discounts; it's so Lego can track consumer behavior at an individual level.
This change doesn't really affect me as a hard-core Lego fan, and Lego's marketing department has been doing a superb job in recent years, so I trust them.
I also trust Huw to handle the not-so-simple decision about how to categorize items in Brickset's database.
Personally, I originally agreed with commenters who suggested labeling sets with multiple tags as opposed to the current hierarchy. But once again, Huw has more experience than me when it comes to databasing sets, and I trust him when he says that is not an easy or clear path. I trust that Huw is listening to our ideas and concerns, and will look at the entire picture to make the best move forward he can to keep Brickset as the premier website for Lego fans.
Add Icons as a tag, just like you do with 18+.
Eventually you can add a tag to all of them that includes 18+, Icons and Creator Expert.
Just keep whatever the Lego website and printed catalogues list the sets as. Creator Expert still exists there, and I'm not convinced that it will disappear any time soon.
Keep the 'Flavour of the Month' branding as tags.
Icons feed the fires, icons falling from the spires
Would this be all themeless 18+ sets or just the big ones? Are they rebranding Everyone is Awesome as Icons for this June?
@BJNemeth said:
"These changes have nothing to do with hard-core Lego fans who frequent websites like Brickset."
I agree and for that reason the ‘Expert’ brand was extremely unhelpful. If you’re a PAFOL (Potential AFOL), the idea that you needed to be an ‘expert’ - the type of person who MOCs mind-blowing creations you may have seen online - was off-putting. Who wants to be shown up as not smart enough by what is ostensibly a kids’ toy? Nobody, that’s who.
The ‘18+’ brand was also awful but for a different reason. It conjured images of sets depicting sexuality and/or extreme violence. Not, I’m guessing, what PAFOLs want from LEGO or, indeed, how LEGO wants to position itself.
Is the ‘Icons’ name a brilliant one? In the sense that the ‘Icons’ sets depict iconic objects/vehicles/places, it may not be too bad. It can also cover iconic LEGO from classic themes, so serves that function too. So all-in-all, ‘Icons’ is not terrible and certainly better than either ‘Expert’ or ‘18+’.
I am not keen on "modular buildings and winter village sets would be split across two themes" etc.
This is so Meta.
Until you see how they organize things, you’re just guessing at how to react. Will SW UCS sets be exclusively branded “Icons”, remain SW, or share both tags? Right now, Creator Expert remains in use on LEGO.com to cover old Creator Expert sets that are currently branded as 18+, but also small Creator 1-in-1 sets that don’t have another home. Icons may work the same as 18+, with the exception that there’s no reason they wouldn’t add an Icons category to the website (I have yet to see “18+” show up on the list of themes you can shop for).
@Are:
They already do. Look at licensed CMFs. All CMF waves will show up under Minifigures, but if there’s an associated theme, they will end up listed there, too. TLBM CMFs could have potentially ended up being listed under CMF, DC, Batman, and TLBM if all four of those categories were running concurrently.
@LegoSonicBoy:
The reason they switched to “18+” is they didn’t want the word “Expert” scaring off potential new adult customers. There’s no way they’d use that again, and trying to keep it alive is just going to confuse the matter.
I bet they will still have an 18+ age rating.
They should just call everything "Lego".
How about Creator Expert (20XX to 2020) and Creator Expert/Icons/18+ (2020-20XX) ?
@LegoSonicBoy said:
"I suggest waiting. The Icons name (which I personally like, just not so sure about the wordmark) has been floating around for several months if not a year now and there's no rush to re-categorize anything.
@csiramokus said:
"as an old fan, to me they were Creator Experts all along but I guess two words is just too long for people to remember these days"
For me, it's not that it's too long. It's that the name is entirely irrelevant to the Creator brand, which is all about rebuilding, and creating your own designs, which none of the sets in this line had ever tried to promote until recently with things like the Porsche 911 and the DeLorean. To this day I'm still not sure how it came about all those years ago. Alternate builds didn't even survive past Café Corner (again until the aforementioned vehicles), and the only "Creator" remnant is the parts list on the box which ironically doesn't appear on 3-in-1 boxes. Icons is a far better descriptor of these sets than Creator Expert ever was. Maybe a good middle ground would be "Expert", with the headlight bricks logo. These are expert models, we all agree. They just have nothing to do with creative building/rebuilding; even the name Ideas wouldn't have been as egregious."
I wish to know why they don't simply call them "LEGO Expert" sets. Simple, clear, indicative, only one word theme. Why not? LEGO knows....
Please Huw, consider creating a new "Expert" theme, adding them all to it, and tagging each one accordingly to its source: Advanced Models, Ideas, 18+, Icons, Creator Expert, Technic, Architecture...
Icons is such a weird name. What does it even mean? They could just label them as creator expert since this theme was already known for big builds
Currently 40516 : Everyone is Awesome is 18+ but listed under Miscellaneous.
I know there's an 18 Plus tag that groups them together again but I don't think all 18+ should be thrown under Creator Expert.
There could be some cleanup in the database :
40486 : Mini Adidas Originals Superstar might be better suited under Promotional rather then Creator Expert.
40532 : Vintage Taxi , another GWP, currently listed under Miscellaneous but might be better listed under Promotional.
Just add one more tag "Lego Icons" and leave the rest as is. If anyone want to find Icons, they will click that, etc etc
Just leave them in the category they where in on their original release date, but add a note to clarify Icon status (shakes head)
My suggestion is to keep old set as they were, and new set as they will. Also, it's not a real theme, but a sub-brand of displayable sets. So there will be "Lego Star Wars Icons".
How about just “LEGO for old people”
:-)
@McBuddha said:
"I think Advanced would have been a better name"
I always liked this description too: Advanced Models, or simply "Advanced". And I suspect this was the first one to be used at Brickset for these "big and intricate" sets.
Huw, consider adding all to a "Advanced" or "Expert" theme with their individual tags, or keep them on their LEGO themes and tag all with "Advanced" or "Expert". This would simplify our searching activity.
At the Mexican LEGO website, these +18 sets have always been labelled as "ICONS", they were only lacking a proper section and logo.
The more marketing BS like this I read, the more I wish I had a time machine and could go back to the Eighties, when TLG was a lovable - quintessentially European - toy company that cared about its customers and offered lots of awesome sets in categories that made total sense. Back then they didn't prioritize marketing speak over what really mattered.
Sure, nowadays we get sets we could have only dreamed about back then, but in terms of (long term) quality, source materials, affordability, and customer service, I will take the Eighties LEGO company over the current one anytime.
And honestly, I built my recently acquired 6952 today, all 268 pieces of its Classic Space glory.
I had much more fun doing so than when I built for example the Ideas Treehouse a while ago, or one of the countless run of the mill Star Wars sets they pump out ad nauseum.
For classification of the "Creator Expert" sets, of course, waiting to see what LEGO is going to do on lego.com and on Bricklink will inspire some solution for the classifying the sets under themes. I think avid fans will be able to look up their sets even when theme changes its name.
Being consistent with lego.com simplifies a lot of effort.
Example 1: Ghostbusters is there as a theme and some sets fall under Ideas.
Example 2: "Creator Expert" Delorean and Ideas Delorean.
Example 3: All licensed BrickHeadz and CMF fall under their own Theme and the license as subtheme
I don't see a problem for the fans finding their sets across different themes, subthemes or even tags.
As for 18+ topic:
I always looked at 18+ as age rating. Age rating being target age group more than anything else. Having it in age rating and in the tags is more than enough, I think.
I'd like to bring the Juniors "retired theme" here as a similar use case. When Juniors was its own theme, the challenge was how to classify a Juniors City Fire set. But with when 4+ came, this challenge was sorted.
By the way, I suggest to add "4+" tag to those sets as well.
@Zander said:
" @busyman said:
"It's interesting because one of my local stores has been using the theme name Icons for a while for a few 18+ sets. Coincidence?
https://altex.ro/lego-jucarii/cpl/filtru/colectie-8837/icons/"
Interesting. Is that true in Romania generally? If so, LEGO may have been using the Romanian market to test the concept. Alternatively, someone at LEGO/a consultancy may have been doing research, come across the Romanian name and suggested that as the name to use.
"
Only the one AFAIK. The retailer was maybe briefed about the change beforehand, but implemented it too early. On their Lego landing page the image for the theme looks like a placeholder: white ICONS text written with a generic font on a blue background.
"modular buildings and winter village sets would be split across two themes, Icons and Creator Expert"
these have to be kept togehter. maybe do a retroactive update to icons or something
I miss creator expert and that iconic logo, they should have gone back to that
@dougts said:
""modular buildings and winter village sets would be split across two themes, Icons and Creator Expert"
these have to be kept togehter. maybe do a retroactive update to icons or something"
Well, according to lego.com, Creator Expert still exists, so they won't fit into the "not already part of an existing LEGO theme" that Lego has announced.
There are some seemingly themeless sets, like Adidas Original, and Everyone is Awesome.
If Creator Expert is dead, Lego seem to have lost their own memo, as they've listed Optimus Prime as such!
@Are said:
"Perhaps sets should be able to belong to multiple themes in your database? I've always felt Lego should do this too. For example the medival blacksmith should be a Castle set and an Ideas set at the same time. If I'm browsing for castle sets, I want to find the blacksmith."
Just casting a vote for this approach. Regarding this and similar examples, someone searching for sets in either theme (when searching by theme) should be able to find sets that can fit into both -- whether "officially" or just obviously/appropriately for purposes of the database. This allows the addition of official categorizations when TLG applies them but without disrupting the previous archive and searchability.
Icons is dumb, just plain Expert would work. Gets the point across that it's a more challenging build, and loses the 18+ rating that makes it sound pornographic or violent
It’s not something that really works for me. It’ll pass.
This seems unnecessary, and potentially harmful.
I still haven't gotten over the black boxes that so many of the "expert" sets now ship with. I hate them. I like colour and brightness.
I think sets should have the labels that were given to them. So Creator Expert sets will have that tag, and new sets will have Icons tag. Just like Town and City were split, and Trains depends on if you're looking at trains in city or in creator.
@NatureBricks said:
"LEGO needs to worry less about what it names things and ore on actual building sets. I've had pieces in wrong bags, missing pieces, incorrect colors in more than just dark red. Worry about important things and not stupid naming of things."
You realize that those two things are handled by entirely separate departments right? you're acting like LEGO is a single amorphous entity that can only do one thing at a time.
If you're having issues with missing or incorrect pieces just contact their customer service instead of whining about it in comments sections.
For what its worth, LEGO could have gone with the name "LegoMaster Set". As far as I can tell, the increase in number of all these big expensive sets surely must be due to the increased acceptance of adults 'building with Lego' due to the popularity of the Lego Masters TV series.
Also "LegoMaster Set" as a name (assuming they want to ditch creator expert) would automatically indicate a more complex/challenging build for any person regardless of age.
I think it is a good approach, to create a new theme named Icons from now on, tag them with the +18 label, and keep the older sets as Creator Expert. Based on the description from LEGO, it looks like not all +18 sets will be released under the new theme. If someone wants to search all +18 sets, it is sufficient to use the associated tag, which will cover multiple themes.
My thought would be to keep it under Creator Expert and then tag it as "Icons" and "18+". It would not be settling or enjoyable to me to see the modular sets be split into two different themes.
@IgelCampus:
18+ was a marketing stupidity. They can put it on the box, but in their biggest market putting that in a list of themes would make it look like they were selling risqué products, which is probably why the change never made it to the website.
@ambr:
“Iconic” is what they call the minifigs that come in tiny boxes, like 5004468.
Icon is supposed to represent something or someone influential, admired, etc.
So for Lego, ICON should be applied to things from the past couple years like:
10276 Colosseum
31197 Andy Warhol's Marilyn Monroe
31198 The Beatles
71374 Nintendo Entertainment System
NASA Apollo Saturn V
43179 Mickey Mouse and Minnie Mouse
21054 The White House
10294 Titanic
Even 21328 Seinfeld
31204 Elvis Presley 'The King'
21333 Vincent van Gogh - The Starry Night
21058 The Great Pyramid of Giza
Also even a classic 1960's Batmobile and the Statue of Liberty, Eiffel Tower, etc.
Not for complexity but for their renowned status in the world.
Furthermore, the 18+ should be ditched.
New builders on the scene, especially parents looking to buy Lego for the first time will see the 18+ and think somehow it's strickly 'adult'. Gives the wrong connotations that a kid can't build that set.
Just about EVERY set can be built by a 12 year old first time builder. Some assistance by parents but for the most part, 12 can build almost everything in the line.
Some Technic, little kids have hard times pushing in pins and if they miss a part of the build, it's tough for them to get the pins out to correct what they did.
Some of those more complex large build Technic should be like 14+.
So everything in their line should be the appropriate ages from the 1.5yr old Duplo all the way to 12+, then tougher or more complex builds no more than 14+.
I get it though, their marketing has the black boxes and 18+ to attract 'older' new builders. I get it.
But it's so unnecessary.
If the sales really spiked and they see no loss from losing any sales to parents avoiding 18+ for their yougin's then they know best.
For Christ's sake, if it ain't broken don't fix it!! What the hell was wrong with Creator Expert???
Personally I always thought '18+' was far more excluding than Creator Expert. I do hope Lego heard about the stories of people seriously taking an 18+ set to the checkout and asking if they need ID, which shows just how stupid the idea was.
But Lego Icons?? Here we go again. So great, every couple of years Lego has to rename all their adult sets because some blithering idiot of a marketing 'expert' sorry '18+ marketer' sorry 'Marketing Icon' thinks there needs to be this super special adult thing because adults are so dumb apparently they can't tell the difference between a huge, detailed building in a very large box with a very large price tag and a Juniors simplistic 4+ set. (and ultimately it shouldn't matter which one they choose to buy)
Icons?? What does that even mean? It reminds me too much of Legends, like 'Iconic'. It's the sort of name I'd give their Landmarks series if they hadn't come up with Landmarks. Icons. I just don't get it. How does it relate to adults, let alone any of the sets it represents??
Sorry, I'm very annoyed right now. It's this typical modern 'thing' people do thesedays. Take something that's working perfectly fine, SCRAP IT BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE IT ITS BAD AND ANYONE WHO SAYS ITS GOOD IS A HORRIBLE PERSON. Then they replace it with a new idea that is apparently BETTER THAN SLICED BREAD AND YOU SHOULD WORSHIP IT. People are confused with the new idea and it's not very popular so they come up with yet another idea with the same thing. THE LAST IDEA WAS REALLY BAD YOU NEVER SHOULD HAVE LIKED IT BUT THIS IDEA IS BETTER THAN SLICED BREAD WORSHIP IT. On and on the cycle goes when life would have been a lot simpler and cheaper if they had just stuck with, in this case, Creator Expert.
Maybe Lego stores should have a massive flashing neon billboard ADULT SETS OVER HERE, HEY YOU, YES YOU THE ADULT WHO HASN"T BUILT LEGO SINCE THEY WERE A KID COME BUY THESE SETS AND GET INTERESTED IN LEGO!
I also find it very ironic that us Lego fans have to remind Lego that not EVERYONE is going to be interested in Lego and that's okay. The Lego Group has been around since 1932, the Lego brick since 1958. Lego has been going fine up until now getting customers of all ages, I don't know why they are having this sudden panic attack that they have to get every single adult off the street and buying 'adult' sets thereby having a mental breakdown about how to label such sets.
LEGO still uses the Creator Expert label for 18+ sets in places like the instructions download area. So the category hasn't gone away, it's just that LEGO stopped using the Creator Expert name in marketing, and has finally decided to starting naming the theme again, but with a new name.
Creator Expert is now Icons. Same theme, new name.
It's weird to see people insist on sticking with an old name. Like how some people still call the online LEGO Shop "Shop at Home" even though LEGO dropped that name years ago. The world will move on while you stay stubbornly stuck in the past.
@Brickchap said:
"For Christ's sake, if it ain't broken don't fix it!! What the hell was wrong with Creator Expert???
Personally I always thought '18+' was far more excluding than Creator Expert. I do hope Lego heard about the stories of people seriously taking an 18+ set to the checkout and asking if they need ID, which shows just how stupid the idea was.
But Lego Icons?? Here we go again. So great, every couple of years Lego has to rename all their adult sets because some blithering idiot of a marketing 'expert' sorry '18+ marketer' sorry 'Marketing Icon' thinks there needs to be this super special adult thing because adults are so dumb apparently they can't tell the difference between a huge, detailed building in a very large box with a very large price tag and a Juniors simplistic 4+ set. (and ultimately it shouldn't matter which one they choose to buy)
Icons?? What does that even mean? It reminds me too much of Legends, like 'Iconic'. It's the sort of name I'd give their Landmarks series if they hadn't come up with Landmarks. Icons. I just don't get it. How does it relate to adults, let alone any of the sets it represents??
Sorry, I'm very annoyed right now. It's this typical modern 'thing' people do thesedays. Take something that's working perfectly fine, SCRAP IT BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE IT ITS BAD AND ANYONE WHO SAYS ITS GOOD IS A HORRIBLE PERSON. Then they replace it with a new idea that is apparently BETTER THAN SLICED BREAD AND YOU SHOULD WORSHIP IT. People are confused with the new idea and it's not very popular so they come up with yet another idea with the same thing. THE LAST IDEA WAS REALLY BAD YOU NEVER SHOULD HAVE LIKED IT BUT THIS IDEA IS BETTER THAN SLICED BREAD WORSHIP IT. On and on the cycle goes when life would have been a lot simpler and cheaper if they had just stuck with, in this case, Creator Expert.
Maybe Lego stores should have a massive flashing neon billboard ADULT SETS OVER HERE, HEY YOU, YES YOU THE ADULT WHO HASN"T BUILT LEGO SINCE THEY WERE A KID COME BUY THESE SETS AND GET INTERESTED IN LEGO!
I also find it very ironic that us Lego fans have to remind Lego that not EVERYONE is going to be interested in Lego and that's okay. The Lego Group has been around since 1932, the Lego brick since 1958. Lego has been going fine up until now getting customers of all ages, I don't know why they are having this sudden panic attack that they have to get every single adult off the street and buying 'adult' sets thereby having a mental breakdown about how to label such sets."
Breathe, breathe...it'll be ok ;)
@legoDad42:
An icon, by one definition, is just a symbol. Those Lucky Charms bits from Clikits are referred to, officially, as icons. So are the little pictures on your computer desktop that link to files and programs.
Maybe just include an "Icons" tag under the set, like how older Ideas sets are tagged "Cuusoo," and keep them under the Creator Expert Theme.
I also second a sentiment above that some sets should belong to multiple themes, like 41612 is both a Minecraft set and a Brickheadz set. I'm pretty sure Shop At Home does this with a few products anyway.
@PurpleDave said:
" @legoDad42 :
An icon, by one definition, is just a symbol. Those Lucky Charms bits from Clikits are referred to, officially, as icons. So are the little pictures on your computer desktop that link to files and programs."
For LEGO it’d be better to use the definition for Icon as a person or thing widely admired especially for having great influence or significance in a particular sphere for like their famous landmarks, art pieces, famous vehicle sets/kits.
I'm glad they'll stop branding them as "18+" because that was a terrible idea from the start. It always implied they were "adults-only" sets in some way...which was ridiculous for Sesame Street and Winnie the Pooh. However, I'm not sure "Icons" is a good name. It's an improvement, but I'm not sure I'd describe 18+ sets as "icons"...which implies they're somehow legendary. Maybe sets for pre-existing IPs (Optimus Prime, Ecto-1, or Sesame Street) are iconic...but I don't think I'd refer to something like the Elf Club House or modular Police Station as iconic.
@Huw said:
" @Chilis_no said:
" @Are said:
"Perhaps sets should be able to belong to multiple themes in your database? I've always felt Lego should do this too. For example the medival blacksmith should be a Castle set and an Ideas set at the same time. If I'm browsing for castle sets, I want to find the blacksmith."
Word!! Totally agree!"
That would require a total re-working of the database structure, unfortunately. We could ditch themes and subthemes altogether and replace them with tags, thus removing any hierarchy and allowing sets to have multiple themes, subthemes, or whatever, but I don't think that would be desirable. Given the way tags are used now, somewhat prolifically, the important ones would be lost among the mass of them."
I would certainly not go with a tags approach. There is certainly a lot of value to themes such as Star Wars where you can quickly filter out a handful of sets, and I appreciate the subthemes as well.
Although there are issues, for example the Star Wars Technic sets from 20 years ago that should probably be listed under both themes. It is possible you could come up with a programmed workaround that would avoid having to restructure your database. You could create a third theme (that doesn’t get displayed in drop downs or listed on the site called “Star Wars Technic”, and simply have a rule that when you select either Star Wars or Technic that this also shows up and that these sets display both of these themes on them. This could be done by creating an additional database table that “defines” each theme.
Following this approach you could keep the integrity of the database by having Creator Expert and Icons as separate themes, but have a “Creator Expert Icons” theme for sets that get rebranded.
Of course I realize that there are probably a lot of locations on this site that will need to be reprogrammed and I know when I do something along these lines at work, I always miss updating some obscure part of our software and it’ll be a few years before it results in an error.
@Huw said:
" @Chilis_no said:
" @Are said:
"Perhaps sets should be able to belong to multiple themes in your database? I've always felt Lego should do this too. For example the medival blacksmith should be a Castle set and an Ideas set at the same time. If I'm browsing for castle sets, I want to find the blacksmith."
Word!! Totally agree!"
That would require a total re-working of the database structure, unfortunately. We could ditch themes and subthemes altogether and replace them with tags, thus removing any hierarchy and allowing sets to have multiple themes, subthemes, or whatever, but I don't think that would be desirable. Given the way tags are used now, somewhat prolifically, the important ones would be lost among the mass of them."
Options are Titling it "Creator Expert / Icons" or
Adding a new Icons group and then updating tags to new and old sets to group them together that way across the 2 themes and finding all of those the same (eg: Adults Only, Expert Vehicles, Modular Buildings etc.)
I think the real issue for Lego is that they simply have a lot of one-off or even once-a-year sets that simply don’t belong in any theme or aren’t worth creating a theme for. In general these sets are geared towards adults, but I’m not really sure that really matters. But since shopping for Lego is so dependent on themes, I think creating this Icons theme is logical, although the name isn’t exactly descriptive.
Unfortunately the 18+, or NC-17, label doesn’t really work as many sets in other themes receive this designation. At the same time, I think it’s important that these sets don’t infringe upon Ideas (a much more logical name) since you want to keep that community separate, even if the randomness of the sets are the same.
It seems to me that this Icons name will be short-lived as anyone who doesn’t religiously read Brickset won’t recognize this name. I actually think that Lego simply has to follow Target’s lead and have a category for sets geared towards adults that span a wide variety of themes. This is of course what 18+ is currently doing, Lego just needs to treat it as a category that is easy to find. Of course, I do think that label needs to change as 18+ has connotations that simply don’t apply to these sets.
Interesting problem for you Huw. I think this is nothing new. Are not Town, World City and City sets all just a renaming of the same theme? Should not these themes be combined into one database? When is a theme a new theme or just a rebranding of an existing theme by Lego?
From a functional point of view, I would prefer not to have to hunt around different themes in the Brickset database to find all the modular buildings for example. Common sense says they are a continuation of a theme regardless of how Lego brands them over the years.
My feeling is that theme in the Brickset database is meant to and should mirror LEGO's official theme classification for the set.
Grouping and classification beyond that is where tags rightfully come in--hence the Modular Buildings tag. As long as everything has good tags (which I believe they do), that should suffice for any need I can think of.
My humble opinion, promote Modulars and WV to their own full themes, leave Creator Expert and Icons as general catchalls for everything else.
@PurpleDave: You make a great point. The purpose of these sets is to introduce people otherwise new to LEGO by offering something completely out of the realm of what LEGO usually does, and as far as I can tell, they've been able to make these accessible and easy to build even with the advanced techniques in play. In that case I can't think of a better name than Icons.
@GSR_MataNui said:
"Maybe just include an "Icons" tag under the set, like how older Ideas sets are tagged "Cuusoo," and keep them under the Creator Expert Theme."
Why should the new theme name become a Tag, when with your example it was the old theme name that became a tag?
Some users here have a point, that we should wait and see how Lego is actually going to use the name Icons, as Creator Expert is still littered with licenses and they would need to clean that up first. But if Lego is replacing Creator Expert with Icons, this should be reflected here. The same way that sets from before the inception of the Creator Expert branding have been retroactively put into the Creator Expert category.
I think Creator + with the Creator Expert logo would have been better than Icons. The Expert made it sound like it is difficult to build & could put off those new to LEGO. Not sure where they came up with the term Icons or the white background, but I don't care for either of these two changes. I didn't mind the black boxes but the white on the new logo looks like a sticker/price tag, very unappealing.
Cohesive theming and branding is a good thing, but...
"Iconic" is already the most overused work in the Lego Group's marketing department. A search at lego.com shows that they have already applied it to 533 different products.
@LegoSonicBoy said:
"I suggest waiting. The Icons name (which I personally like, just not so sure about the wordmark) has been floating around for several months if not a year now and there's no rush to re-categorize anything.
@csiramokus said:
"as an old fan, to me they were Creator Experts all along but I guess two words is just too long for people to remember these days"
For me, it's not that it's too long. It's that the name is entirely irrelevant to the Creator brand, which is all about rebuilding, and creating your own designs, which none of the sets in this line had ever tried to promote until recently with things like the Porsche 911 and the DeLorean. To this day I'm still not sure how it came about all those years ago. Alternate builds didn't even survive past Café Corner (again until the aforementioned vehicles), and the only "Creator" remnant is the parts list on the box which ironically doesn't appear on 3-in-1 boxes. Icons is a far better descriptor of these sets than Creator Expert ever was. Maybe a good middle ground would be "Expert", with the headlight bricks logo. These are expert models, we all agree. They just have nothing to do with creative building/rebuilding; even the name Ideas wouldn't have been as egregious."
I do think that many of the 18+ sets are expert, but indeed, not all of them are worthy to be labeled as such. Difficulty doesn't exactly make them 18+, it more so that interest makes them 18+. The botanical collection is a good example. Those sets are particularly hard to build and they don't exactly fall along the lines of expert, but they wouldn't interest a younger person as much, so they gravitate towards the adult market and are 18+, as an recommended age.
I don't exactly see how icons makes sense, because how would unlicensed themes in the 18+ fit in that aren't iconic? Surely, the modular buildings are iconic, but when the first one was released it wasn't an icon, but more of a beginning to an iconic series. Does this mean that we won't see any new and unheard of sets that aren't icons because they won't fit the new branding? I certainly hope not because I would like to see more original sets in the future.
Overall, 18+ sets have just been a rather awkward line to name because they are not Creator sets, nor are they all particularly Expert, and they are certainly not all Iconic. All of the sets don't even have the 18+ marketing in common. Quite a few were 16+ or 14+ I believe because they based it on build difficulty and not how interesting the set was. Yet again another fact showing how they were not all Expert.
What exactly will they be like in the future though? Hopefully, they are all as good as they have been these past couple of years. But unfortunately, these great sets we have gotten these past years were not all Expert level, they were not all Creator, and most certainly, they were not all Icons. How is a Bonsai tree iconic? Yet it is in the 18+ line. And truthfully, unless they make a new theme for every uniconic set, there are going to be some strange icons. 18+ seems to be there best bet moving forward as long as they keep it 18+ interests and not difficulty. That really is the most accurate description to use for the current line up, and in all honesty, this lineup is good enough that I hope they don't mess it up in the future all on the count of rebranding.
For sure, not all of the past Creator Expert sets were even that high of a difficulty in build level.
A true point, but also not all 18+ sets are icons. Flowers = icons? No.
@NatureBricks said:
"...with 268 pieces (or 317 as Brickset claims) was selling for so much."
I suspect the discrepancy is because we have included the individual minifig and robot parts in the total, as LEGO itself does. BL doesn't.
The Lego 18+ series of sets bring me great joy.
Oh no, I don't really buy them and honestly, I don't really care about most of them - save the occasional item of personal interest. Rather, I draw great amusement from watching Lego's marketing team go the distance with marketing that makes "how do you do, fellow kids?" less of a meme and more of a personal mantra. The comments sections on these choices oscillates between all sorts of spicy takes that, in the end, you just gotta stop and admire the carnage. It's all so alien to the Lego news cycle of yesteryear and yet, somehow, admission to watch this madhouse is totally free.
Personally, I miss the days when Lego was less of an obnoxious lifestyle brand and they just made fun playsets. Ah well, time marches on. Gotta derive joy where you can, I guess. Here's to the next amusing publicity stunt, my friends!
I feel like Lego is over engineering their Marketing. I felt this way when they started with the 18+ labeling. At the end of the day, these are toys. They need to spend less time deciding what type they are going to put on the box and more time on creating new ideas and designs.
Simply rename the category to "Creator Expert / Icons" as it covers both names but basically represents the same category.
"All Growed Up LEGO"
@BJNemeth said:
"It's laughable that a bunch of internet commenters with zero experience in marketing think they are so much better at it than the most successful toy company in the world.
These changes have nothing to do with hard-core Lego fans who frequent websites like Brickset. (Though they do affect how Brickset might categorize sets, as Huw mentioned.) Lego markets to our demographic thru the Lego Ambassador Network, by sending sets and information early to Brickset and others so they can release information and reviews shortly before big/important sets go on sale.
If anybody commenting on Brickset wants to find the newest modular building or a new set like the Delorean Time Machine or a botanical set, we'll find it. The categories are useful for us, but not dealbreakers. They are more important for others who are not like us.
Lego's marketing department has far more information on sales and its customers than most of us realize. It's not just "this set sells more than this set." Lego VIP isn't just to give our bonus points and discounts; it's so Lego can track consumer behavior at an individual level.
This change doesn't really affect me as a hard-core Lego fan, and Lego's marketing department has been doing a superb job in recent years, so I trust them.
I also trust Huw to handle the not-so-simple decision about how to categorize items in Brickset's database.
Personally, I originally agreed with commenters who suggested labeling sets with multiple tags as opposed to the current hierarchy. But once again, Huw has more experience than me when it comes to databasing sets, and I trust him when he says that is not an easy or clear path. I trust that Huw is listening to our ideas and concerns, and will look at the entire picture to make the best move forward he can to keep Brickset as the premier website for Lego fans."
That's a LOT of trust.